timeline for Willie Dunn, Jr.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
You made two good points there. Wilson doesn't mention anything about golf design, he was referring to their experience in construction and greenkeeping. And second he doesn't use the term novice, he said they only had the experience of a typical club member, and we don't know if the typical club member in 1910-11 was a novice or not. Was the typical club member of 1910-11 a novice?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tmac,

Why do you persist in trying to make others answer inane questions like "Was the typical club member of 1910-11 a novice? Speaking only for myself, it tends to be both irritating and to serve to dilute the impact of your other good contributions here.  Just my MHO and $.02, but since the total number of courses was so low, and the construction committees of any new course numbered only a few of each club, yes, they were typically novices - or worse.

It seems like you are slyly trying to tweak MC into agreeing with you on a parse of words that really aren't signifigant to the discussion, i.e. your use of the word novice. Why bother?

[Tom MacWood]

It seems like you are slyly trying to tweak MC into agreeing with you on a parse of words that really aren't signifigant to the discussion, i.e. your use of the word novice. Why bother?

That was my exact reaction when I read Mike's inane post #443.

[Tom MacWood]

Interesting Stuff in that Travis article.  He mentions that HH Barker was the pro at GC when Dunn did the work, and later says Dunn's successor "had no genius for gca".  Who was Dunn's succesor?  Was it Barker or someone else?

Here is another example of inane post meant to tweak. Where did Travis write Dunn did any work at GCGC, much less with Barker? You should practice what you preach.

[TEPaul]

"TEP
It really doesn't matter to me one way or the other. Either the experience observing Dunn at Princeton provided Wilson with some basic understanding (or more) of golf design or it didn't, and if it didn't we should accept his own assessment of himself that he was a novice."


Tom MacWood:

I am not aware that any one of us ever said that Hugh Wilson was not a novice when in 1911 he got ready to do Merion East. After all he had never designed a golf course before. He admitted as much and I don't know that anyone ever questioned him on that. Every architect would have to be considered a novice with their very first project I'm sure.

The only difference between us, Merion and the historical record of the architecture and architects of Merion, and you and Moriarty is the two of you seem to assume that because Hugh Wilson was a novice at that time that that meant he and his committee were not even capable of routing and designing Merion East without someone else essentially doing it for him and his committee.

That is where you two are wrong and it occurs to us as well that it also shows you don't really know much about what goes on in the field with the routing, design and creation of golf course architecture. And why would you----neither of you have ever been part of anything like that as even an observer? Had either of you ever had those experiences, even as an observer for a few days or weeks, I have not much doubt your opinions would be quite different.

[TEPaul]

"Where did Travis write Dunn did any work at GCGC, much less with Barker? You should practice what you preach."


He didn't say any such thing in that article as I read it. He also didn't say anything about Bendelow as Dunn's successor. The only person he mentioned and appeared to be talking about in that part of that article in this context was Donald Ross. Who else did he mention in that part of that article in that context?

No one that I can see other than Donald Ross.

Read the rest of what Travis said in that article about Donald Ross in 1906 at Pinehurst. Can you not even see where Travis pretty clearly states that he in fact was Ross's mentor on this new way of designing golf architecture? What else do you think he meant he had been whispering in Ross's ear? Do you think Walter meant he was whispering "sweet nothins" in Donald's ear at Pinehurst in 1906 so they could act as 'a unit' in preparation to do Pinehurst #2? 

Frankly, by 1920 there are arguably only three people in America that anyone might say had been involved in a couple of hundred golf courses and Ross would probably be one of them. The only other potential candidates I could imagine at that point would be Bendelow and perhaps Alex Findlay.

[TEPaul]

"You made two good points there. Wilson doesn't mention anything about golf design, he was referring to their experience in construction and greenkeeping."


Clearly a good number of people involved in the business of golf course design at that time used the word "construction" for design including Hugh Wilson. I submit as EXHIBIT A the very article and its TITLE that we have been referring to on here written by Walter Travis in American Golfer in 1920.

Would you care to quote for us the entire TITLE of that particular article, Tom MacWood, or should we do it for you?

[Joe Bausch]

Yesterday I asked about a timeline for Willie Dunn, Jr for the following reason.  Also yesterday I found a Jan, 1918 article penned by Chick Evans from a recent meeting he had with Dunn.  Part of the headline ("... builder of 900 courses...") grabbed my attention.  But perhaps Mr. Evans really meant to say 9.0 x 10exp1.   

In the 2nd paragraph Evans states that Dunn laid out the Shinnecock Hills golf course, which I believe is well documented.  The real head-scratcher is that Evans in the last paragraph says "Willie Dunn had laid out over 900 courses, among them being the Merion course, where the last national championship was played".  For those of you still new to the early US Amateur history, it was Evans that won this tourney at Merion (where both the East and West course were used for the qualifying rounds).

Early in the article it sounds like Dunn spent a good amount of time in France, perhaps from 1908ish until right around 1918.  Hence, him being involved in any fashion with Merion East or West seems unlikely.

In my first post on this thread was an 1896 article from the Philly Inquirer that says a "Willie Dunn, the champion golfer" had done work on the original Philly Country Club course.  I believe the first nine holes of the original Merion Cricket Club course was done by Willie Campbell, but perhaps it was Dunn that did the second nine.  But I really don't know right now.  But that would be the simple explanation for the confusion on the part of Evans.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Interesting Stuff in that Travis article.  He mentions that HH Barker was the pro at GC when Dunn did the work, and later says Dunn's successor "had no genius for gca".  Who was Dunn's succesor?  Was it Barker or someone else?

Here is another example of inane post meant to tweak. Where did Travis write Dunn did any work at GCGC, much less with Barker? You should practice what you preach.

TMac,

Well, it was a legit question on my part, but I think you are right. Because Travis comments on Dunn's "system" of design and then on his changes at GCGC, I made the mistaken leap of faith that he was changing Dunn's design there.  So who, if you know did the original GCGC?

He then says that while Barker was pro, and he then convinced Barker to try design, so I guess if anything Barker would be a Travis deciple. But, again, maybe those old newspaper articles just get too confusing. But, my bad on the original reading of the LA84 article posted.

[TEPaul]

"So who, if you know did the original GCGC?"


Jeff:

I don't believe there has ever been much question but that the "original" GCGC was done by Devereaux Emmet. Travis got involved with the course a bit later.

[Mike Cirba]

As mentioned, Dunn did do some changes to Willie Campbell's original Merion course and I have an 1896 article to that effect.  

That could be the source of confusion...either that or perhaps Merion East was simply another Wilson/Llolyd/Griscom/Francis/Toulmin/Macdonald/Whigham/Colt/Barker/Lesley/Dunn design.

Did developer Joseph Connell have any design experience, or any of the landowner farmers in the surrounding Ardmore neighborhood?

[TEPaul]

"Part of the headline ("... builder of 900 courses...") grabbed my attention."


Joe:

That sure grabbed mine too. I mean I think we are all aware of a certain amount of hyperbole and exaggeration in some of those old newspaper articles but that one seems completely beyond the Pale.

With all these great researchers on here can any of them give us a ballpark figure of how many golf courses there were in America in Jan 1918 when Chick Evans wrote that article? I ask because if he thinks Dunn had to do with 900 of them that might mean Dunn had something to do with something like one third or one quarter of all the golf courses in America at the time.

Maybe Dunn worked for P.T. Barnum too who made the great remark "a sucker is born every minute."

[Mike Cirba]

Oops....I forgot Raynor. 

[TEPaul]

"Did developer Joseph Connell have any design experience, or any of the landowner farmers in the surrounding Ardmore neighborhood?"


MikeC:

Don't make too much fun of that one just yet. We do have a residental lot layout plan of those developments surrounding Merion East and interestingly they have the lot owners names on most all of the lots and residences. Some very interesting people indeed----very interesting. What it shows me is the really broad reach of the likes of Horatio Gates Lloyd and the massive connections of Merion with mega-financial movers and shakers to do with Drexel and Morgan cos and particularly the PRR. Essentially it seems they were all in it together in an attempt to turn the Main Line into a real replication of suburban or rural England.

Joseph Connell was actually a highly respected and extremely powerful and seemingly philanthropic man. He too had quite the Philadelphia legacy.

I have this really wonderful book on some of the fascinating residental building architecture through that time (actually from 1880-1930) and it mentions that their ethos back then went like this.

"They're first allegiance was to the PRR, and then God, and State and Country."

[Mike Cirba]

Wait...

Didn't Alex Findlay provide valuable advice and suggestions to Hugh Wlson concerning the Alps hole and almost certainly others??

[TEPaul]

Yes, Alex did. Alex Findlay seemed to lay claim to being Hugh's primary travel agent abroad. I think C.B. wanted to take credit for that but it looks like Alex finessed Charlie on that one.

I'll tell you one thing about old Willie Dunn jr if a few of the accounts about him I've seen over the years are remotely true----eg he seemed to be a hobnobber par excellence; he had some very important friends in some pretty high places over here, or at least it appears he said he did.

[Mike Cirba]

Didn't George Thomas Jr. write that he learned a lot watching Wilson at Merion and Cobbs Creek, so he must have been there too, right?

And we know that A.W. Tillinghast wrote that he had "seen the plans" for Merion pre-construction, and knowing that irrasiible and irrepressible Tilly who would comfortably bet that he didn't offer a bit of advice, as well?

How about Travis...wasn't he on the east coast then?    And Ross...I believe he was in contact with Philly Cricket and Sunnybrook, so it's pretty clear he might have been involved.

Do we know exactly where George Crump, Ab Smith, and Frank Meehan were every hour of every day during that period in 1911-12 when the course was being designed and constructed?

I want answers, man....  

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

I wouldn't begin to hazard a guess at just how many courses there were in 1918, but I would hazard that there were many more than most would guess. I base this on an article from the Des Moines News from April 1916 in which it states that Tilly says that 500 courses would be built in America in that year alone...

[Mike Cirba]

To get back to Joe's original question here, can anyone tell us anything about Dunn's whereabouts in late 1910 thru say fall 1911?

[JMorgan]

[TEPaul]

I want answers, man...."


Joe:

Do not forget, Hugh Wilson in that chapter he wrote in 1915-16 for P&O's book about the evolution of Merion that he not only mentioned the help and advice he and his committee received from Macdonald and Whigam but he also mentioned the help and advice he had received from certain unnamed local golf clubs and course committees who had been involved previous to his work on Merion beginning in 1911. For some strange reason that has virtually never been mentioned by anyone I'm aware of on here.  

[Tom MacWood]

In the 2nd paragraph Evans states that Dunn laid out the Shinnecock Hills golf course, which I believe is well documented.  The real head-scratcher is that Evans in the last paragraph says "Willie Dunn had laid out over 900 courses, among them being the Merion course, where the last national championship was played".  For those of you still new to the early US Amateur history, it was Evans that won this tourney at Merion (where both the East and West course were used for the qualifying rounds).

I believe the general consensus today is Willie Davis laid out Shinnecock, not Dunn. I seriously doubt Willie Dunn laid out 90 course much less 900 courses.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

The likely local candidates based on my understanding of history would include Messrs. Smith, Heebner, Meehan, and Bispham.

Ab Smith had been revamping Huntingdon Valley for a number of years trying to turn it into a championship type course.   Heebner's Whitemarsh Valley was the "longest" course in the area and thus used for championships with greens that were very well-regarded, Meehan was a grass expert, and Bispham had done alterations at Philly Country Club (perhaps to Travis's plans) and was known as well as a good grass guy who had some really good greens too.

I think it was a bit too early for Tilly's work at Aronimink with George Klauder...