Florida Project

[Tom_Doak]

It'll be interesting to see how the US minimalism pros handle a maximalist project.

Henry:

That's the thing.  They moved 12 million yards with no thought of building a golf course, and wound up with a pretty neat landscape.  I've done the grading plans for our 18 holes, and my estimate is that we'll move 50,000 cubic yards of earth to create the golf course ... there are three fairways that need to be built up a bit for drainage.  So, I'd call that minimalist.  Bill Coore's half of the site is a little more complicated, as two of the holes still have to be mined out.

[Alex Miller]

Henry:

That's the thing.  They moved 12 million yards with no thought of building a golf course, and wound up with a pretty neat landscape.  I've done the grading plans for our 18 holes, and my estimate is that we'll move 50,000 cubic yards of earth to create the golf course ... there are three fairways that need to be built up a bit for drainage.  So, I'd call that minimalist.  Bill Coore's half of the site is a little more complicated, as two of the holes still have to be mined out.

So it's not a collaboration? Damn, looks like the golf community is going to have to settle for second best again. 

[Mike Hamilton]

OT a few yrs back I was looking at a site west of Plant City and came across a course SE of Plant City off Coronet Rd that was in dire straights financally.  I was struck by the snow white ground around the lakes to the north (looked like something from a different planet or nuclear winter) and was told it was from phosphate mining.  Does anyone know how this  (or whether) this effects the ecology of nearby land or the groundwater?

I think there a quite a few issues.

See this site for some info..

http://www1.fipr.state.fl.us/PhosphatePrimer/0/764E773481EAD02A85256F790058D446

Apparently mining dates back to the 19th century and reclamation laws were passed in 1975.  Wouldn't be surprised if compiling with this regulation is also a part of the developer's economics.

Seems to me there are few better ways to go about land reclamation than building golf courses  .

[Joe Bausch]

TomD, do you think you could, oh, finish your 18 holes by say this weekend?  I'm heading out to the Tampa area on Friday for some golf.   

[PCCraig]

Pat C:

The site is quite a bit better than you imagine, for being 50 miles from the ocean.  My best guess is that they moved something like 12 million cubic yards of earth (500 acres times 15 feet average elevation change) during the mining operation to accidentally create the landscape for the two courses.  So it really doesn't look like Florida at all.

Tom- thanks for the reply. I understand if you can't, but if can you comment on how the landscape compares to black diamond golf club, which was also a mining site way back turned into a golf course...for some reason that's the impression I got from your description.

A couple other questions if you don't mind, is their going to be lodging on site? Are they planning on building both courses at the same time?

[Tom_Doak]

Pat:

I will get back to this thread in a day or two, after I've heard from my client on how to proceed now that he let the cat out of the bag.

I have only been to Black Diamond once, many years ago, but I remember it as a moderately hilly site which had 4-5 holes built around deep quarries.  Our site is very different, as all of the elevation changes are created from a relatively flat starting point.  They dug down below water table in some areas, and piled sand very high in others.  I hope I will have permission to post a couple of pictures next week so you can see what I'm talking about.

[jeffwarne]

Peter:

Your player didn't mention if it was okay for you to talk about the project online, did he?  Because he told me the other day we still shouldn't be giving out details [such as the ones you are giving out] for another couple of months.

I agree that when I read this I thought the same thing. But if it is such a secret than he shouldn't be talking about it with a caddy. IMO.

To defend myself here, I am the assistant pro there and I caddy on special occasions for certain groups.  I caddied for this group because he wanted to learn a lot about Stone Eagle.  I asked him tons of questions about the project, and he never once said anything about being quiet.  I even mentioned that there is a website online that is talking about it, and he got all excited.  I am sorry if I let out information to early. 

Peter,
I assume the player you guided also agreed not to divulge any of the information you gave him about Stone Eagle.
Sounds like the client needs the gag order(if he truly wants to keep it quiet), not the caddie or the architect

I was just in the Lakeland  area Thursday and played Cleveleland heights-good bones-tough winter on a no overseed course.

[PCCraig]

Pat:

I will get back to this thread in a day or two, after I've heard from my client on how to proceed now that he let the cat out of the bag.

I have only been to Black Diamond once, many years ago, but I remember it as a moderately hilly site which had 4-5 holes built around deep quarries.  Our site is very different, as all of the elevation changes are created from a relatively flat starting point.  They dug down below water table in some areas, and piled sand very high in others.  I hope I will have permission to post a couple of pictures next week so you can see what I'm talking about.

Sounds very neat Tom, thanks for responding. Hope to see some pictures soon!

[henrye]

It'll be interesting to see how the US minimalism pros handle a maximalist project.

Henry:

That's the thing.  They moved 12 million yards with no thought of building a golf course, and wound up with a pretty neat landscape.  I've done the grading plans for our 18 holes, and my estimate is that we'll move 50,000 cubic yards of earth to create the golf course ... there are three fairways that need to be built up a bit for drainage.  So, I'd call that minimalist.  Bill Coore's half of the site is a little more complicated, as two of the holes still have to be mined out.

Interesting perspective.  A site that's had 12 million cubic yards moved around to mine phosphates and then left so that only an additional 50,000 cubic yards needs to be moved to route a strong golf course.  I'm not disagreeing with you, but am struggling with your concept.  You are the modern day promoter and expert of minimalist golf design, so I guess this qualifies.

It would be interesting to know if your client thought he had a great site for golf in its current state and sought out minimalists or if he was more attracted in both your firms' resumes and other qualities.

[Sean Leary]

Peter:

Your player didn't mention if it was okay for you to talk about the project online, did he?  Because he told me the other day we still shouldn't be giving out details [such as the ones you are giving out] for another couple of months.

I agree that when I read this I thought the same thing. But if it is such a secret than he shouldn't be talking about it with a caddy. IMO.

To defend myself here, I am the assistant pro there and I caddy on special occasions for certain groups.  I caddied for this group because he wanted to learn a lot about Stone Eagle.  I asked him tons of questions about the project, and he never once said anything about being quiet.  I even mentioned that there is a website online that is talking about it, and he got all excited.  I am sorry if I let out information to early. 

That was my point. You didn't do anything wrong, in my mind...

[Greg Tallman]

Interesting, never thought I would want to move back to the Lakeland area but one never knows.


Kyle - Cleveland Heights is really not worth exploring if you are talking about the muni track in the heart of Lakeland.

[Adam Clayman]

Thank Gawd they didn't go with the obvious. Greg Norman.

[Richard Choi]

Is this the site?

http://www.bing.com/maps/#JnE9eXAuNTg4MCtNYW5sZXkrUmQlMmMrRm9ydCtNZWFkZSUyYytGTCU3ZXNzdC4wJTdlcGcuMSZiYj0yOC4yMzg5MzIxOTA3MTI4JTdlLTgwLjY4MTI1MTEzNDc2NTclN2UyNy4wNjk5OTM1MDk3NzA0JTdlLTgyLjgzMTgyNDg2NTIzNDQ=

[Tim Leahy]

I hope like Stone Eagle both courses will have golf cart access.

[John_Cullum]

Is this the site?

http://www.bing.com/maps/#JnE9eXAuNTg4MCtNYW5sZXkrUmQlMmMrRm9ydCtNZWFkZSUyYytGTCU3ZXNzdC4wJTdlcGcuMSZiYj0yOC4yMzg5MzIxOTA3MTI4JTdlLTgwLjY4MTI1MTEzNDc2NTclN2UyNy4wNjk5OTM1MDk3NzA0JTdlLTgyLjgzMTgyNDg2NTIzNDQ=

Close, but you'll need a good cart

[George Freeman]

Is this the site?

http://www.bing.com/maps/#JnE9eXAuNTg4MCtNYW5sZXkrUmQlMmMrRm9ydCtNZWFkZSUyYytGTCU3ZXNzdC4wJTdlcGcuMSZiYj0yOC4yMzg5MzIxOTA3MTI4JTdlLTgwLjY4MTI1MTEzNDc2NTclN2UyNy4wNjk5OTM1MDk3NzA0JTdlLTgyLjgzMTgyNDg2NTIzNDQ=

Wow, that certainly looks like an interesting site!  Not sure how you would build a minimalist course looking at those trenches/water-ways

[Kyle Harris]

Interesting, never thought I would want to move back to the Lakeland area but one never knows.


Kyle - Cleveland Heights is really not worth exploring if you are talking about the muni track in the heart of Lakeland.

I've explored it, a lot. It's got plenty of subtle Flynn touches left - all in the greens.

[jeffwarne]

Is this the site?

http://www.bing.com/maps/#JnE9eXAuNTg4MCtNYW5sZXkrUmQlMmMrRm9ydCtNZWFkZSUyYytGTCU3ZXNzdC4wJTdlcGcuMSZiYj0yOC4yMzg5MzIxOTA3MTI4JTdlLTgwLjY4MTI1MTEzNDc2NTclN2UyNy4wNjk5OTM1MDk3NzA0JTdlLTgyLjgzMTgyNDg2NTIzNDQ=

Close, but you'll need a good cart

an hour from Orlando??
in a chopper maybe

[Jud_T]

I wonder if you'll have to be a resort guest to gain access...

[Bruce Katona]

If the project is mine reclamation and the previous land owner (the mining operation) is responsible for "capping & stabilizing" the land before turning it over to the next entity in the chain of title, the economics of this may work, as by reference in earlier posts there is a tie into a local resort where play can be generated.

Can a project be financed in today's world - yes - but perhaps not in the manner we had previously.  Bank funds would come from a local bank who is comfortable with the area, more traditional larger lenders are not letting much out the door these days.

Best of luck on an adaptive re-use site.

[Tim Nugent]

Maybe this will be the start of something, it looks like alot of sites from Rt. 60 in Barstow down to Richard's site has about 18 miles of potential.  If the sites can be had for next to nothing and the State/Fed had some Brownfield reclaimation grants, who knows? Could be a low cost mecca of golf.

[John_Cullum]

One of the neatest properties I have ever seen for a golfcourse is just eat of Lake Wales on Hwy 60. It is an active sand quarry and alot of earth has been moved around a lake was dug out. the color of the water in the lake is incredible

[Tom_Doak]

I spoke with our client today.  He was VERY surprised to hear that his conversations with his caddie at Stone Eagle led to a thread like this, but, such is the nature of modern life I guess.  Anyway, he's still sensitive about putting out too much information about a golf project that still needs his company board's approval, and environmental approvals, before it's for real. 

On top of that, as some of you know, too much advance publicity sometimes brings the wrong kind of attention at public hearings.

So, I would appreciate it if this thread went away for a while.  None of you is more excited about the prospects for this new project than I am.  But, if you somehow manage to screw things up by speculating about aspects you don't really have any facts on, it's possible that a lot of talented guys will remain hungry, and the project will never happen as a result. 

We will probably now talk to the major publications about it a little bit so they don't feel "scooped" and hold it against us.  But I will provide no additional facts to anyone until the project is approved, so they won't print much you don't already know.  So hopefully, any article that comes from it will not lead to another thread on the subject.  I will be happy, as always, to talk about the project at length once it's a happening deal.  Thanks for your understanding.

[Steve_Roths]

Let's just delete this thread then. 

[jeffwarne]

I spoke with our client today.  He was VERY surprised to hear that his conversations with his caddie at Stone Eagle led to a thread like this, but, such is the nature of modern life I guess.  Anyway, he's still sensitive about putting out too much information about a golf project that still needs his company board's approval, and environmental approvals, before it's for real. 

On top of that, as some of you know, too much advance publicity sometimes brings the wrong kind of attention at public hearings.

So, I would appreciate it if this thread went away for a while.  None of you is more excited about the prospects for this new project than I am.  But, if you somehow manage to screw things up by speculating about aspects you don't really have any facts on, it's possible that a lot of talented guys will remain hungry, and the project will never happen as a result. 

We will probably now talk to the major publications about it a little bit so they don't feel "scooped" and hold it against us.  But I will provide no additional facts to anyone until the project is approved, so they won't print much you don't already know.  So hopefully, any article that comes from it will not lead to another thread on the subject.  I will be happy, as always, to talk about the project at length once it's a happening deal.  Thanks for your understanding.

Your client hasn't had many caddies evidently
Speaking to ANYONE about a project without his board's approval would seem to be a mistake-if he's telling a caddie, who else has he told? Let's not put this all on the caddie...or this board