[Greg Holland]

Due to an impending renovation, I have been cleaning out my office.  Found a 2003 Golf Magazine with the following list.  Thought -- given some recent threads, it might lead to some more interesting discussion:

1.  Seminole (17)  (it was all about Ben Hogan.  Key word:  was)
2.  Pinehurst No. 2 (7) (fix ball mark near hole, walk 50 feet past, chip back onto green:  is this golf?)
3.  Baltusrol Lower (38) (if not within 30 minutes of USGA HQ, nobody would have heard of it)
4.  Spyglass Hill (74) (play the first 6 holes 3 times)
5.  Pebble Beach (3) (9 spectacular holes along the Pacific a golf course does not make)
6.  Sand Hills (11) (what's the real challenge:  the course or just getting there?)
7.  St. Andrews Old Course (5) (Sam Snead was right (as were Scott Hoch and Lee Westwood))
8.  Olympic Lake (32) (Beware Vertigo:  sloping fairways only Hitchcock could love)
9.  Royal Melbourne (10)/The Country Club (32) (Both ratings are for composite layouts, which don't exist except for the ranking)

[Tim Nugent]

And the Author was???

[Matthew Petersen]

What was it that Sam Snead said about the Old Course? I wasn't aware that anyone ever had criticized it.

[Bob_Huntley]

Matthew,

What was it that Sam Snead said about the Old Course? " I wasn't aware that anyone ever had criticized it."

If Sam Snead ever uttered that sentence I would be most surprised.


Bob

[Jud_T]

Sam Snead's original comment upon first seeing TOC- “Down home, we wouldn’t plant cow beets on something like that.”

[Cliff Hamm]

Baltusrol should be thrilled being on such a fine list

[Kyle Henderson]

Sam Snead's original comment upon first seeing TOC- “Down home, we wouldn’t plant cow beets on something like that.”

Isn't that the point? Ideal linksland is for growing wispy grasses that allow a ball to roll while soggy, fertile soils are for growing crops.

[PCCraig]

Whoever wrote this must of been only using half a brain.

"9.  Royal Melbourne (10)/The Country Club (32) (Both ratings are for composite layouts, which don't exist except for the ranking)"

TCC is not overrated, if anything the course is better when the composite holes aren't used.

And on another note I'm not even sure how the Composite Course at TCC even has enough votes to be rated as that course is really only (officially) open about ~10 days a year, tops.

[Tim Leahy]

I will bet that the person who wrote this never played any of the courses listed.

[Greg Holland]

I can't recall the author -- want to say Andrew something (and had to pack it up).

Funny, found this today, posted as February Golf list.  The most recent version seems a bit more reasonable (with some obvious exceptions).  More interesting to me is the underrated list -- some make sense, but some are hard to imagine:

Most overrated
10. Augusta National
9. Harding Park
8. Sahalee
7. Bandon Trails
6. The Country Club at Brookline
5. Champions Golf Club
4. Torrey Pines (North)
3. Pinehurst No. 2
2. Pebble Beach
1. Medinah

The list is sorely missing Oakland Hills.

Most Underrated:

10. Coyote Moon (Truckee, CA)
9. Saddle Creek (Stockton, CA)
8. Gold Canyon / Dinosaur Mtn. (Phoenix)
7. Dancing Rabbit (Choctaw, MS)
6. The Golf Courses of Lawsonia (Green Lake, WI)
5. Circling Raven Golf Club (Worley, ID)
4. Wynn (Las Vegas)
3. Bethpage / Red
2. Tobacco Road (Durham, NC)
1. Spyglass Hill


Also, found this one from 2006
The 10 Most Overrated Courses in the World (according to George Peper)
1. Pinehurst Resort & C.C. (No. 2), Pinehurst, N.C. (photos)
2. Royal Melbourne G.C. (Composite), Melbourne, Australia
3. The Country Club (Composite), Brookline, Mass.
4. Muirfield Golf Club, Gullane, Scotland
5. Baltusrol Golf Club (Lower), Springfield, N.J.
6. Augusta National Golf Club, Augusta, Ga. (photos and photos)
7. Pine Valley Golf Club, Pine Valley, N.J.
8. Royal Troon Golf Club, Troon, Scotland
9. Seminole Golf Club, Juno Beach, Fla.
10. The K Club, Straffan, Ireland

[JohnV]

I believe Snead looked out the window as the train went by the old course and asked, "Is that an abandoned golf course there?"

Interesting that Spyglass is on both an overated and an underrated list. I know where I'd put it.

[Shane Wright]

Also, found this one from 2006
The 10 Most Overrated Courses in the World (according to George Peper)
1. Pinehurst Resort & C.C. (No. 2), Pinehurst, N.C. (photos)
2. Royal Melbourne G.C. (Composite), Melbourne, Australia
3. The Country Club (Composite), Brookline, Mass.
4. Muirfield Golf Club, Gullane, Scotland
5. Baltusrol Golf Club (Lower), Springfield, N.J.
6. Augusta National Golf Club, Augusta, Ga. (photos and photos)
7. Pine Valley Golf Club, Pine Valley, N.J.
8. Royal Troon Golf Club, Troon, Scotland
9. Seminole Golf Club, Juno Beach, Fla.
10. The K Club, Straffan, Ireland

[/quote]

Muirfield, Pine Valley - SERIOUSLY?  Wow.

[Richard Choi]

Overrated-underrated ratings are higly over-rated.

A couple of years ago they did a poll of MLB players on who they thought was most over-rated and who was most under-rated.

Derek Jeter won both.

[Kevin Lynch]

Haven't played enough of these courses to make too many comments, but I would echo the thoughts on Bethpage Red.  That course is surely a victim of having Black next door.

However, the Red can always brag that is has a far superior finishing hole.  The Black's 18th is one of the most disappointing finishers in the US Open Rota.  I love the 18th at the Red and wish they could figure out a way to incorporate it into the routing.

Unfortunately, I understand why they won't do it (because every Golfer wants to play the same course the Pros use). However, I would suggest anyone who is in the Long island area and isn't willing to sleep in their car to play the Black - give the Red a look.

[Tim Nugent]

The beautiful thing about one man's opinion is that it is just that... one man's opinion.

[Mark Pearce]

Muirfield Golf Club?  Peper could at least get the name of the club right, or just the name of the course.  Difficult to take too seriously a list produced as a result of such a lack of accuracy. 

[Anthony Butler]

Whoever wrote this must of been only using half a brain.

"9.  Royal Melbourne (10)/The Country Club (32) (Both ratings are for composite layouts, which don't exist except for the ranking)"

TCC is not overrated, if anything the course is better when the composite holes aren't used.

Is it even the best course in Massachusetts? Salem, Essex, Myopia and Kittansett are better IMHO. An opinion that is shared by just about everyone in MA who doesn't have a Frances Ouimet photo in their study or a current membership at TCC.

Amongst the 4 serious golfers who turned up at my house last Saturday, both Eastward Ho and Old Sandwich beat TCC. Charles River and Concord Country Club are a toss up with the Clyde/Squirrel nines which collectively have about 5-6 pedestrian or just plain weird holes. The 10th hole with the tiny green behind the grass hump. The parachute sand wedge to a green the size of my bedroom and the 7 iron second to a blind ninth green about the size of my garage are three off the top of my head that take 'quirk' just a little too far.

The prizes in at their Member Guests, however, are awesome.

[Andrew Summerell]

9.  Royal Melbourne (10)/The Country Club (32) (Both ratings are for composite layouts, which don't exist except for the ranking)

The author obviously hasn't played them because he believes they "don't exist except for the rankings"

Well, I've played Royal Melbourne composite & I know quite a few others taht have as well.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Different people will love golf courses others hate its just the way it is. An Opinion is hard to argue with, I was talking the other day to one of our members and The Belfry was his favourite course and he had played at least half of the top 100. A lot of people want fairness in a golf course and that takes out the links courses. A lot of people simply do not like TOC, hit a shot into a green it pitches into an upslope and stopes or 3 foot further on the ball runs 60 feet. It is interesting that PB and SH pop up in that list, the points made are fair SH is 5 + 13 and PB as we argue has the shore holes and others. Royal Troon has a lot of just okay holes. I have not played Pinehurst but maybe the run offs are not FUN. Maybe FUN is having kickbacks and being flatterred. THE ACTUAL TRUTH IS  some like the challenge of Pinehursts greens and some do not, its back to that opinion again. I watched without sound the matchplay last night and to be honest I found those greens ruining it... its an opinion.

[Martin Toal]

Different people will love golf courses others hate its just the way it is. An Opinion is hard to argue with, I was talking the other day to one of our members and The Belfry was his favourite course and he had played at least half of the top 100. A lot of people want fairness in a golf course and that takes out the links courses. A lot of people simply do not like TOC, hit a shot into a green it pitches into an upslope and stopes or 3 foot further on the ball runs 60 feet. It is interesting that PB and SH pop up in that list, the points made are fair SH is 5 + 13 and PB as we argue has the shore holes and others. Royal Troon has a lot of just okay holes. I have not played Pinehurst but maybe the run offs are not FUN. Maybe FUN is having kickbacks and being flatterred. THE ACTUAL TRUTH IS  some like the challenge of Pinehursts greens and some do not, its back to that opinion again. I watched without sound the matchplay last night and to be honest I found those greens ruining it... its an opinion.

I am in the camp that says The Belfry is utterly forgettable. It may be fair, but so too would a course consisting of exactly the same 2/4/500 yard straight flat par-3/4/5 with no bunkers for every hole.

Links is not unfair, it is just that some aspects of the links game which are arbitrary and exist on every course, are made rather more explicit and put into the player's mind early.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Martin, I think its just impossible to be so exact where a ball lands on some of the greens at TOC and thats what the pro's find annoying, a good shot can be six or sixty foot away, thats the bit the better players dont want. They are playing for high stakes, they want the reward for that good shot, they want fairness. I think that there are great bits about the TOC, but there are many things we dont replicate in modern architecture that are found there. A lot of modern golf courses dont get the recognition they deserve in my opinion, I think our raters get too stuck in the past and I know the way some magazines do their ratings is utterly bizarre I am not sure if a clubhouse is relevant to if a golf course is good or bad, but some include that and include history too. Thats probaby not fair. All ratings are going to be skewed to someones preference I expect.

[Sean_A]

People hammer on about the Belfry all the time.  For the life of me I can't see how anyone can think it is a bad course unless drainage is brought up.  I can understand saying it costs too much or it isn't good enough to hold a major event such as the Ryder Cup, but in no way (other than drainage!) is the Belfry a bad course.  If this is one of the worst courses folks are playing life is very good.

BTW - Troon is well over-rated.  I think a much better course could be built there.  The land is actually very, very good for golf and I think a top modern designer could get more from it.

Adrian

You said

"Martin, I think its just impossible to be so exact where a ball lands on some of the greens at TOC and thats what the pro's find annoying, a good shot can be six or sixty foot away, thats the bit the better players dont want. They are playing for high stakes, they want the reward for that good shot..."

There is a problem with that line of thinking.  There is a difference between a good shot and a good strike.  IMO, the two concepts are often used interchangeably, but they shouldn't be.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean I think with the evolution of golf courses, in part design and in part maintenance, everything has been geared to making things better and by that I mean things like the quaity of the playing surfaces. The greens are smoother today and today they are faster than yesteryears, that is betterment (to most). Our greenkeepers and those behind the scenes are continually working on new products and testing ideas to still improve. Years ago I might have not got up in two on a par 5 after a great drive because I had a bad lie on a fairway, that rarely happens now on modern courses, and to some degree rarely even on links courses. Your beloved Pennard (and I am with you that it is a very good course) really seems to suffer in the minds of some because of condition/ fairness. The better players when they talk of what they like talk of fairness and reward for shots, they want a good lie on the fairway, they dont want invisibility or chance. They know how far they hit 174 yards and they know when they have hit that shot how far its gone, I have no doubt that they know when they have hit a good shot. Taking a hypothetical "the open returned to Prestwick" they would think the 5th is a joke, hate the sea headrig and laugh at 15th green.

[Martin Toal]

I like both links and modern designs. My favourite course is Newcastle, which has many arbitrary aspects but is invariably a pleasure, but I also like some modern manufactured well conditioned courses of the sort you get in high end resorts in the US, like Pelican Beach in Newport, CA. It is nice to mix them up a bit.

The issue with the Belfry is not that it is a modern parkland course or it is not in good condition. It is just rather forgettable and I think a lot of average punters (not GCA members, of course) assume that because it was a Tour and RC event it must be good and they are admitting to not really understanding golf if they don't like it.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Martin you can obviously get any course on days when it is in bad condition but it certainly can be in good condition. It actually was constructed very badly initially, though now the improvements mean those greens in the summer are as good as anywhere really. Agree it can get a bit damp though but most newies unless they are on a very sandy soil suffer too.

Theres a lot of memorable stuff in my opinion the 3rd as it is now, the par 3 is a nice short hole the 9th is a great hole now the trees are up, 10 and 18 speak for themselves. The thing with this course is there is not a bad hole, I probably think 11 and 14 are very boring, its a great match play course though with a lot of long 4s or fives at the end. It isnt the greatest by any means IMO but I think its better than many on some of "100 lists" that get the oldboy network nod.

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