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Mark_Rowlinson

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Can you re-route this course?
« on: February 18, 2010, 02:08:55 PM »
Below are some aerials of my home course, Wilmslow. You will notice that holes 7, 8 and 9 run parallel to a minor road. Unfortunately that road is getting rather busy with drivers (not only of cars but also of vans and lorries) trying to avoid the serious traffic hold ups in and around Alderley Edge. I am a left hander who slices. Suppose I slice the ball which causes the dreadful traffic accident that forces the club to abandon those holes. Could you re-route the course in such a way that it remains at about the same length?

It's all hypothetical, it's not a competition and I can't give you topographical maps. It is mostly a very flat site. There is however a deep, steep sided river valley which is crossed by the 1st, 9th, 14th and 17th. The 18th descends to a green beside the stream at the bottom of the valley. The prevailing wind is from the south west. The practice ground is, inconveniently, on the east of the course alongside the 13th hole, but there is a road running beside that and the triangle of land to the north of it is not owned by the club. It would be marvellous if you could redesign the 14th which is OK if you are a competent male player, but it is a brute of a hole for the ladies because the tees are on a steep downslope and relatively few of them can find the distance and height needed to reach the green. The further down the slope the shorter the hole but the greater the height needed. The slope up to the green is very steep and somewhat damp. It is a dangerous place for all but the young and fit from which to play a shot. And while you are at it, can you find a way to start the round without having to tee off over the 18th green? You will be following in the steps of Sandy Herd, James Braid, Tom Simpson and the many others who have altered this course in its 107 years on this site. 

You'll find hole lengths and more detail on each hole on http://www.wilmslowgolfclub.co.uk/holes/hole01.aspx





Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2010, 02:37:33 PM »
Mark - Yes I think I could re-route that course. That road at 7 and 8 especially is going to cause problems as traffic increases, I can see your dilema.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Niall C

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Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2010, 02:39:14 PM »
Mark

The first question I would ask is how happy would the club be at losing a lot of the trees in the middle of the course, ie bordered by 1st, 17th and 18th ? I note you say that there is a deep ravine there, maybe gibven the greater distance players hit the ball and the fact it easier to get the ball in the air these days a hole could be designed to more advantage of it thereby freeing up a bit of elbow room.

That said the stretch between 1st and 6th looks tight and difficult to do anything with other than move the 3rd over to create more room for the 7th to play away from the road. The fact that you have two relatively long holes along that boundary probably doesn't help in the safety factor as players would be more will to open their shoulders and have a blast, a shorter hole along that boundary might help to focus the play away from the road edge.

The more I think about I suspect I could do something to help. How much is the commission ?  :D

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2010, 02:45:33 PM »
Mark,

How difficult do you think it would be to learn to play right handed? And would the swing fault that makes you slice as a lefty, reverse itself (when you do), resulting in a wicked hook?

I'd rather be hit by a slice than a hook...


How much of that field left of 15 could you buy?

How about Niall's tree question?

Good thread.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2010, 02:47:29 PM »
Mark,
Get the township to change the speed limit signs from-whatever-exists down to 15 kph. No one will want to use the roadway, the town could make a small fortune on speeding tickets, and eventually your problem goes away.

No charge.  ;)

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2010, 02:58:14 PM »
Mark, I absolutely LOVE the way the first tee shot is directly over the ninth green! 

Only in Great Britain on 100 year old courses!

I'm sure after all these years everyone knows who has the right of way and plays accordingly.

What is the topography of the open area that's alongside #3?  Looks like there could be another par 3 there to replace #9.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2010, 06:05:41 PM »
Would it be practical to just move the fairways 20 yards to the right and cut down the trees?  The other fairways could be moved a bit as well if needed for safety.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2010, 06:57:36 PM »
Mark:

There are a couple of spots of unused ground, so it ought to be possible to change the routing to use them better and get more of a buffer along the road.  However, it would not be an inexpensive fix, as you'll have to move fairways and greens ... so the perceived safety issue has to be a real liability.

Perhaps you can find an expert on restoring the work of Sandy Herd.  ;)

Lester George

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Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2010, 08:10:42 PM »

I can re-route it.

Lester

Tim Nugent

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Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2010, 10:30:44 PM »
Option 1) leave the course alone, move the road.

This is a common case of improperly spaced holes due to trees.  When trees are lined along a hole, they effectly limit ones ability to start the ball off (to the right in your case) and allow it to come back into the fairway.  Unfortunately, the holes along the road are the tightest. The least drastic possible solution that would maintan the integrity of the course would be to break out the chain saw and start making firewood.  It looks as if cutting a majority of the trees in the #5,#4,#3,#7 fairway zone would not only allow those fairways to shift away from the road but also provide more options as to how to play the holes.

Hole #8 seems to have a bit more room but the road curves into it.  Shifting the tees closer to the road would force the line of play further to the right.  If this doesn't do the trick, the fairway would have to be shifted right, which would require repositioning the 2nd landing area (which looks much narrower than the plan) closer to the tees (by moving the tee back and #1 green over to the left to make room).

Coasting is a downhill process

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2010, 04:12:28 AM »
Mark,

Jim hints at this above, but is putting holes on the other side of the road an option? I suspect it isn't but the reason for mentioning it is that I seem to recall that Lindrick did this with their 12th hole that use to run close to a road on the left. They managed to lease (I think) some land on the other side of the road further away from the road. However in that case you altready needed to cross to the road to get to the next hole.

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2010, 06:01:42 AM »
As I said, this is all hypothetical, but it is the sort of problem which will occur more frequently I suspect. The trees to the left of the 1st and 18th cover the deeply plunging river valley. Were this ever to be necessary I am sure the club would look at the possibility of acquiring neighbouring land. That land to the left of the 15th fairway is already a turf nursery (for golf courses, football pitches etc). It and the land on the far side of the road is dead flat. Nice idea to move the road but that would be phenomenally expensive!   

This is the course as it was when it opened in 1903:


This is the 1910 course (Sandy Herd)



This is the Braid course of 1921


Today's course incorporates amendments made in 1932/3 by Tom Simpson and a substantial rebuild in 1936/7 by Hawtree and Taylor, the 13th being extended to a par 5 with a new green in 1983.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2010, 07:15:01 AM »
Mark I think you are right that with the modern world and litigation and claims we are going to have lots of future problems. I would'nt say it was definite that the 2025 Open at St Andrews iincluded the current 1st or 18th, indeed the old lady might even be dealt a worse fate. Maybe with disclaimers we can around internal problems, outside party problems may be less easy.
The sad thing is your course could be improved for safety but I dont think it will improve as a golf course and it might be that the changes determine its ultimate fate, as your members will drift away, or you wont recruit new ones as the other clubs around become more attractive.
Your club is one of many that with a swift court ruling coupled with the insurance company demanding clubs adherr to rules which are more 'tick the boxes - the computer says NO' could be faced with an unsolvable situation.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2010, 07:50:13 AM »
Hi Mark,

Here is my first go with the layout utilising the existing area and creating a buffer zone between the golf course and the road - the new 17th goes through the trees and river area - could be costly but potentially a great new hole.



There are 7 new greens and 7 realigned fairways.

I suppose that the land on the left of the 5th could be bought by the club to create 4 new holes and the rest of the layout could be configured away from the road. This could lead to more existing holes to remain and fewer lost.

Cheers
Ben

PS James - is this your Grandad's golf club??
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 07:52:35 AM by Ben Stephens »

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2010, 08:00:56 AM »
Mark


Another thought is to retain the 1st hole - remove 7/8/9/10 altogether and create a new hole left of the 13 on the current practice ground in the opposite direction of 13. 3 new holes could be created in the area left of the 5th hole.

A new practice area could be created in the area of Hole 10 and between 10 and 18.

Additional land cost balanced out by cheaper golf course construction and keeping 18 holes in play at all times.


Cheers
Ben

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2010, 02:07:03 PM »
Hmmm ... this thread is reminding me of an article I read yesterday in the Delta Airlines magazine on the way home.

The subject was "Crowdsourcing" -- businesses that are outsourcing creative work to individuals by soliciting ideas on the web.  The big ad agencies are concerned it will cost them dearly, because online, there are tons of freelancers who will submit creative ideas for a tiny fraction of what you would normally pay an agency.

I was thinking that might become an issue in golf course design, too, and one day later, here it is!

On the one hand, it drastically reduces barriers to entry in the design business.

On the other hand, it has the potential to slash fees so that only a few big names can make a living at design [if we aren't there already].  As the article pointed out, most of the people who will find work this way will be allowing the company that hired them to make a lot of money off their ideas.  One site is taking product ideas and paying less than a penny on the dollar, compared to what you'd make if you developed the idea a bit further and then sold it to a manufacturer.

I am all in favor of a more balanced system of fees for golf course architects, but not to the point that we let our clients make all the money from our skills.  A really good routing is worth a lot to a project that has the chance to be financially successful.

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2010, 03:45:45 PM »
Tom, this thread shows that, in spades.  Just as the Armchair contest allows those who think "I could do that" lets them experience just what is involved and how hard it is to make it lok so easy. (BTW your Arrrrggghhh comment was too funny.)  If a club did this to save money, odds are they would get what they are paying for, then have to hire a professional to fix that.  Plus, as this was a hypothetical case, posters didn't have to include their multi-million $$$ Professional Liability Insurance certificate.  I found it interesting that novice fixes required blowing up a major percentage of the course while "moving the road " was dismissed as cost prohibitive. 
Several of Dad's sayings come to mind:
"Fools rush in where Angles fear to tread"
"Experience is a dear school but only fools learn"
"If it were easy, any fool could do it"

Fool was short for well-meaning but nieve person.

Did Mike ever tell about his idea an 18-hole course?  An armchair contest picking 18 different contest winners and giving them each a hole in a master routing to design. Like a quilt.  Dick talked him out of it, said there would be a lack of continuity.  Lucky for you, Bandon was his next project.
Coasting is a downhill process

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2010, 10:00:33 PM »
Tim:

I'm fine with people getting a shot at design without prior experience.  Most of us had to start like that.

I just don't want to see golf architecture reduced to a hobby or a free service, because (among other reasons) there are a lot of people doing the hiring who don't understand just what a mess it's possible to make.

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2010, 05:31:43 AM »
Mark
Here's my take on it from just seeing the map and the aerial.

On the face of it I would take some trees down along the right side of the tee shot on the 7th and realign the fairway across to the right (away from the road) by around 10m, with the inclusion of a new LHS fairway bunker to help players align their tee shots that much further across to the right. This is also where the road nips in closest to the line of play.

With the 8th, given there is a walkback to the tee, I'd seriously consider moving the tee up and across to shorten the hole by around 50-70m. This would make these two holes quite a bit safer and would require no new greens, just a new tee complex for the 8th and some new fairway area (plus a bunker) for the 7th. Fairly minimal cost, especially compared to a scheme like that proposed by Ben which changes at least half the course.

I'm available to consult if you'll fly me out from Australia for an inspection!

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2010, 06:04:08 AM »
Tom, As it is an imaginary exercise, just to give fun to those of us like me who haven't a clue what real golf course architecture involves, I don't think we'll do you out of your fees. But, as Adrian says, there will be a lot of this sort of work around in the UK. I'm sure a lot of it will be carried out 'in house' and that much of it will be very average - quite possibly the course is already no more than average - but there will be clubs which recognise the vision that professional architects can bring to problem solving.

I have a parallel for you. In the current economic climate few people are moving out of our densely populated suburb, preferring to extend their house. Some are doing it themselves, some get in builders who simply add bits onto the house. We got in an architect. We had some ideas of what we wanted, but he talked to us about our lifestyle, how we used the house (we both work from home), and so on. He went away and came back with the most imaginative way of extending and we now have a number of really interesting and successful rooms that we could never have dreamed of. Yes, he cost money, but the ingenuity of his design meant that the finished project was no dearer than if we had not used him. 

Many of the better clubs/courses around here retain an architect on a consultative basis. Any major alteration work of this kind is going to be put out to tender. Wilmslow takes professional advice on all matters of greenkeeping and there is a winter programme in train at the moment including tree and undergrowth removal. It's not being done in a haphazard fashion. The consultant has drawn up the scheme for tree removal very precisely - some of it to to allow for my slice! As the average age of that wood is considerable it is clear that many of these trees will come to the end of their lives at the same time. A programme of appropriate regeneration is under way.

Tim Nugent

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Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2010, 11:22:20 AM »
Tim:

I'm fine with people getting a shot at design without prior experience.  Most of us had to start like that.

I just don't want to see golf architecture reduced to a hobby or a free service, because (among other reasons) there are a lot of people doing the hiring who don't understand just what a mess it's possible to make.

Tom,  I'm confused with your first statement.  I don't no of many who got their shot at design without prior experience.  Most have apprenticed under a professsional for years before being able to go solo. (granted some pros bought their way in by hiring GCA's). You wouldn't hav gotten your shot without Pete, Stranz without Fazio, Brauer without K&N, Andrews without Carrick, etc.  And for the most part it goes up the Architectual family tree.


I don't think many boards would risk the course they've been entrusted with, to any fly-by-night, Johnny-come lately.  They will want someone who has "been there, done that".  If they thnk they can do it on the cheap, who's to stop them?  Happens all the time.  It's the next Board that ends up spending good money after bad to hire an architect to come in and fix the mess you so aptly allude to.
Coasting is a downhill process

John_Cullum

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Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2010, 11:26:48 AM »
.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 11:29:08 AM by John_Cullum »
"We finally beat Medicare. "

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2010, 09:58:46 AM »
Tim,

As in all things, if the value is there a worthwhile client will recognize it...if the value is not there, why should they pay for it?


Tom,

I think your comment about the client making all the money in this "crowdsourcing" technique is myopic...isn't the ultimate theme of capitalism for the seller to provide either: the same quality for less money, or improved quality for the same cost...as the current status quo?

The ultimate winners on the selling side are those that convince the market to pay more for the same quality...while the winners on the buy side are the ones that recognize earliest where to get improved quality for lower cost...

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2010, 10:12:09 AM »
I always figured the internet would devalue our services somehow. I didn't see it happening quite that way.

TD may get hammered two ways - as a gca and an author since the web is probably a cheaper way to distribute books, his book and others may be digitalized by Google, and so many bloggers are giving away gca writing for free.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you re-route this course?
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2010, 10:31:51 AM »
This is amazing, getting 'outsourced' by your own countrymen.  :o

I thought this was only supposed to happen to textile workers.   ;)


I still say, change the speed limit, leave everything else alone, problem goes away, no architect's harmed during production.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 10:33:38 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

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