[Bill_McBride]

Bryan (and the other Canadians), I played a course outside Toronto in around 1993 - I remember because the Blue Jays were in the World Series - that was most likely west of downtown.  I've been trying to remember the name for years with no success.

The course was essentially played on two levels.  The first three or four holes were on the upper level and then you played your tee shot off the upper level down an escarpment to the lower level on a really good par 4.  Toward the end of the round you wound your way back up to the clubhouse.  I remember the par 5 #17 very clearly because it was around dusk and a large squadron of geese landed in the pond right in the front of the green.

Any idea where I was playing?  It was the only golf I've played in Canada east of Vancouver and I liked the course a lot.  

Bill,

Any more clues?  Was it private?  Was it further west than the airport? Near the lake, or further north?  There's holes like the par 4 and the par 5 you describe at Glen Abbey where the Canadian Open has been a good number of times, but the hole numbers are different than you've mentioned.

 

It was definitely public, I was taken out there by the freight forwarders at a trade show I was working.  I guess though that it's possible one of them knew a member if it was private.  It was pretty far out, maybe an hour from downtown.  Definitely not Glenn Abbey (although I've never been there).

"I'm just searching for clues at the scene of the crime." - The Eagles

[Bryan Izatt]

Bill,

I've racked my brain, but can't come up with another suggestion for your forgotten course.  An hour drive west of downtown would get you to Hamilton if you went outside of rush hours.  Any other things you remember about the course?  Big clubhouse - modern, old?  Well maintained course?  Did the par 4 from the upper level to the lower require a river crossing on the second shot to the green?  Can you describe the par 5 any further?  Squadrons of landing geese is not helpful.  It happens on all courses around here.  A poopy nuisance bird.  Perhaps we could send the birds south to FL for the winter and you could just keep them.   

[John Moore II]

"I'm just searching for clues at the scene of the crime." - The Eagles

Actually Bill, that was just Joe Walsh solo and not with the Eagles, though they do play it at Eagles concerts now.

Sorry for the diversion.

Bryan, just a few questions:
Best course you've ever played?

Biggest letdown of a course (over-rated course, however you like to phrase it)?

What do you do for a living?

[Ian Andrew]

I spent a few years playing Annandale (where you may never have been)

Bryan,

I went to Pickering High School for Grades 9-11 - I was a member up at Seaton (Pickering then).

What do you think of Cherry Downs and the 6-6-6 routing?

[Garland Bayley]

...

It occurs to me that Garland would not like this course at all, but it is a fine course.

 

How does it stack up under scrutiny and application of John Kirk's unified theory of golfing enjoyment?

[Bryan Izatt]

John,


Bryan, just a few questions:
Best course you've ever played?


I'm not a fan of discrete ranking of courses.  There are so many good ones that i like that it's impossible for me to pick just one out.  Amongst those that I really like are Teeth of the Dog, the Ocean Course at Kiawah, The Old Course, Royal Dornoch, TPC Sawgrass, North Berwick West, Osprey valley Heathlands, Cruden Bay, Barnbougle Dunes, Pacific Dunes, ................... and on it goes in no particular order.


Biggest letdown of a course (over-rated course, however you like to phrase it)?


Biggest letdown was Pebble Beach.  Too much self inflicted hype before going, a bad round, and a feeling that it was a waste to pay that much (back when the fees were lower than they are today) to play a bad round of golf.  And, in those days the fairways were fairly undefined, and hence the course felt wide open, unlike it looks today.  And, before anyone starts questioning my sanity, I'm not saying it's a bad design.  I was just let down by extraneous factors.



What do you do for a living?


Now, I'm semi-retired.  I do some consulting to large IT firms on how to make successful bids on large dollar value RFP's.

Before I retired, I managed an organization providing computer and telecommunication services.

[Bryan Izatt]

I spent a few years playing Annandale (where you may never have been)

Bryan,

I went to Pickering High School for Grades 9-11 - I was a member up at Seaton (Pickering then).

What do you think of Cherry Downs and the 6-6-6 routing?

Seaton, now there's another name from the distant past. Just up the road and a little bit upscale from Annandale.  I used to play there occasionally in high school in the 60's.  Another example of the not-so-fine dark ages of golf course design, although I didn't know it at the time.  But, it must serve a part of the golf market, as it still exists.  A very flat plateau front nine before plunging into the forest for a very tight back nine.  I think it is the first and only place I've ever hit high tension power lines while playing the ball up the middle of the fairway.   

Did you also play Thunderbird (now Royal Ashburn) in your high school days?  A much better course that we also played with our high school team.


I was a member (junior) at Cherry Downs in the mid-60's.  I hadn't played it again until last fall, a 44 year hiatus.  Interesting how after all those years the memories of the holes came back, despite the maturing and renovation that has taken place.  Back in the day, and currently, it isn't a 6-6-6 routing, though.  There are only 2 par 5's on the back.  Coming from Annandale, the 6 par threes and 5 par fives didn't really jump out at me.  Even now, it doesn't seem odd.  Having played for years at St Andrews Valley, I guess I'm used to a 6-6-6 routing.  At Cherry, upon returning last fall I was left wondering why the Cherrys' didn't square off the property in the northeast corner and give themselves some more room to route holes.  The course, as is, is pretty compact.  That lead to some silly holes, like the par 5 fifth and fourteenth.  I always liked the set of par 3's, although the side-by-side 7th and 16th seemed a bit odd.  The ninth was always a brute of a par 3, especially from the back tees in the days of balata and persimmon.  Sadly, they've taken out the cavernous bunker that used to eat into the green on the left side.

   
 

[Bryan Izatt]

...

It occurs to me that Garland would not like this course at all, but it is a fine course.

 

How does it stack up under scrutiny and application of John Kirk's unified theory of golfing enjoyment?

For this area, pretty well.  It's not super fast and firm, but it does drain well, so it does provide some bounce and roll.  It sure isn't a FL water course.  There are many other courses that I can think of that satisfy the Kirk theory but they're not around here, unless we are having a drought summer to dry out the clay many of our courses are built on.

[Garland Bayley]

...

It occurs to me that Garland would not like this course at all, but it is a fine course.

 

How does it stack up under scrutiny and application of John Kirk's unified theory of golfing enjoyment?

For this area, pretty well.  It's not super fast and firm, but it does drain well, so it does provide some bounce and roll.  It sure isn't a FL water course.  There are many other courses that I can think of that satisfy the Kirk theory but they're not around here, unless we are having a drought summer to dry out the clay many of our courses are built on.

There's more to the Kirk theory than bounce and roll. For example, are there any ponds on the course that you know your ball will go in the moment you mishit it? No waiting for the result there! Streams make you wait for the result, because they can be missed even when the ball travels towards them.

[Bryan Izatt]

Garland,

Forgive me for misunderstanding the Bayley Water Corollary to the Kirk Theory. 

Some of the ponds are forced carries, although there is generally a way to tack around them.  And, some of the ponds are to the side of the line of play.  On some of those there might be some delay before the result is known.  Of course, it depends on how badly you mishit it.    

[Garland Bayley]

Bryan,

Sounds like I wouldn't like the course at all.

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