Pebble Beach #14 Hole Locations

[Bill_McBride]

I was playing Sunday afternoon     so missed the telecast of the final round at Pebble.  Last night I watched the DVR recording and was shocked to see the messes Molder and Goydos made of the hole.  Looking at the small footprint of the upper (left) level and the steep false front of the right (lower) level got me wondering ---- are there four hole locations for the U.S. Open in four months?

It appears there may be a front left and a back left and perhaps a back right.

I haven't played Pebble in 32 years (last time in 1978 the green fee was $65 and we carried our bags, no cart paths.    )

For those who have played there a bit (Bob Huntley, Adam, who else?), please share your thoughts on this.

Every one in the field will play the hole on equal terms, but there could be quite a few bloodbaths if the wind is up.

[Adam Clayman]

Bill, First off, the right side is not a false front. Overall, It is a gentle slope from back to front. Yes the left side, of the front right side of the putting surface, is steep, almost bulbous, but the general slant to that right side is not all that steep. However, at the current green speeds that USGA obviously condones, the right side is too steep.

Rather than slow the greens, they appear to be condoning surgical remedies to any green created with character. A pity as Bob would say.

Is there a green in golf with as unique a character as the 14th at Pebble?

[Kalen Braley]

Is the 14th green one of the ones Dr. MacK did or one of Egans?

[Bill_McBride]

Bill, First off, the right side is not a false front. Overall, It is a gentle slope from back to front. Yes the left side, of the front right side of the putting surface, is steep, almost bulbous, but the general slant to that right side is not all that steep. However, at the current green speeds that USGA obviously condones, the right side is too steep.

Rather than slow the greens, they appear to be condoning surgical remedies to any green created with character. A pity as Bob would say.

Is there a green in golf with as unique a character as the 14th at Pebble?

Adam,

There may not be a false front but the balls on Sunday were certainly rolling back off the slope between tiers and then the front of the lower right side unimpeded by gravity!

At 12 on the stimp, where do you think Mike Davis will be able to cut four holes on #14?

[Pat Burke]

played the '92 Open there, if I remember correctly,   top left, top left, top left, and top left.
The hole locations during tournament rounds will likely be no more than 10-12 feet from each other.
At US Open speeds in '92 no ball would stay anywhere on the right

[Adam Clayman]

Kalen, Neville had an artist create this green's design. At least that's the story. It's so unique I believe it.

Bill My favorite micro feature is how the reverse side of the hump on the top shelf has just the slightest down slope opposite the buried elephant slope. It's what makes a putt from the lower tier, or, off the front, straighten up at the end. The typical first time golfer will freak out about how much break they need to play, when in reality it's counter intuitive and not much break needs be played because the early high speed needed to climb the elephant doesn't allow much of the slope to affect the ball.


The very right sides edge of this green is severely sloped back towards the middle. When the pin is on the right, a putt from behind the hole is so cool and impossible to read. One needs to know to almost kiss it off the collar before going almost 90 degrees right eventually straightening up to plop in the hole.

What's fascinating when people talk about balls not being able to stop on fast slopes they fail to mention or consider the 4 1/2 inch hole that will stop it.

Testing shots are testing. Why is the green treated with such a different attitude?

[JESII]

Testing shots are testing. Why is the green treated with such a different attitude?

Just taking that statement on it's own (potentially out of context), but it seems a pretty limiting mindset.

If the green speed will not let the ball stop near the area being discussed you can't argue that the player has simply to make the putt...that would be akin to asking for a drive over 300 yards of water with the only option being to land it on a small island in the middle and then go the rest of the way from there...

[Bill_McBride]

Kalen, Neville had an artist create this green's design. At least that's the story. It's so unique I believe it.

Bill My favorite micro feature is how the reverse side of the hump on the top shelf has just the slightest down slope opposite the buried elephant slope. It's what makes a putt from the lower tier, or, off the front, straighten up at the end. The typical first time golfer will freak out about how much break they need to play, when in reality it's counter intuitive and not much break needs be played because the early high speed needed to climb the elephant doesn't allow much of the slope to affect the ball.


The very right sides edge of this green is severely sloped back towards the middle. When the pin is on the right, a putt from behind the hole is so cool and impossible to read. One needs to know to almost kiss it off the collar before going almost 90 degrees right eventually straightening up to plop in the hole.

What's fascinating when people talk about balls not being able to stop on fast slopes they fail to mention or consider the 4 1/2 inch hole that will stop it.

Testing shots are testing. Why is the green treated with such a different attitude?

Adam, I'm still looking for an answer to my question...........how many hole locations?

Bonus points if you have any idea where they would be!

[Alex Miller]

Here's my guess:

Round 1: Back left
Round 2: Middle left
Round 3: Back left but at least 6 feet away from round 1
Round 4: Front left (like this past sunday)

[Bill_McBride]

Here's my guess:

Round 1: Back left
Round 2: Middle left
Round 3: Back left but at least 6 feet away from round 1
Round 4: Front left (like this past sunday)

So no holes cut on the right side in the rear at all?

[Alex Miller]

Here's my guess:

Round 1: Back left
Round 2: Middle left
Round 3: Back left but at least 6 feet away from round 1
Round 4: Front left (like this past sunday)

So no holes cut on the right side in the rear at all?

Personally, I can't see it happening. In general, Olympic and Shinnie's mishaps with green speeds and hole locations are viewed as embarrassments for the USGA and the right side at US Open speeds brings that into play.

However in the future I would love to see them flatten just a hair so it could be done, but not for this year. 

[Kevin_Reilly]

However in the future I would love to see them flatten just a hair so it could be done, but not for this year. 

Be careful what you wish for.  The same "flattening" was a disaster at Olympic and a partial correction has only recently been done.

[Adam Clayman]

Testing shots are testing. Why is the green treated with such a different attitude?

Just taking that statement on it's own (potentially out of context), but it seems a pretty limiting mindset.

If the green speed will not let the ball stop near the area being discussed you can't argue that the player has simply to make the putt...that would be akin to asking for a drive over 300 yards of water with the only option being to land it on a small island in the middle and then go the rest of the way from there...

No, It's akin to asking the best players in the world to drop an up hill 10-20 foot putt that will roll back to theor feet if they miss. Surely a second bite at the apple from almost the exact same location isn't too testing?

Bill, It depends how much room is enough room to distinguish between pin positions. Since all are on the top shelf, I'd say there are at least 7 different places on that top shelf that would have different characteristics and are at least a yard or two apart.

[Michael Blake]

Didn't Faldo and someone else say during the broadcast that there can't be any right side hole locations at all?

[Bill_McBride]

Testing shots are testing. Why is the green treated with such a different attitude?

Just taking that statement on it's own (potentially out of context), but it seems a pretty limiting mindset.

If the green speed will not let the ball stop near the area being discussed you can't argue that the player has simply to make the putt...that would be akin to asking for a drive over 300 yards of water with the only option being to land it on a small island in the middle and then go the rest of the way from there...

No, It's akin to asking the best players in the world to drop an up hill 10-20 foot putt that will roll back to theor feet if they miss. Surely a second bite at the apple from almost the exact same location isn't too testing?

Bill, It depends how much room is enough room to distinguish between pin positions. Since all are on the top shelf, I'd say there are at least 7 different places on that top shelf that would have different characteristics and are at least a yard or two apart.

Sounds like the play will be treacherous and one-dimensional.  What would you think about a future project to flatten the back half of the right side to add a few more hole locations?

[JESII]

No, It's akin to asking the best players in the world to drop an up hill 10-20 foot putt that will roll back to theor feet if they miss. Surely a second bite at the apple from almost the exact same location isn't too testing?

Are you serious?

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:  Remember, it's Adam, not me.  

I don't believe they have used the right side of the green in either of the last two Opens, so unless they softened some contours over there the last time they rebuilt greens, there is no way they're going to put a hole over there this summer.

For that reason, I consider the hole drastically overrated.  It's a really cool green, but it doesn't really work, and it hasn't worked for a heck of a long time.  However, they are apparently too busy adding stupid bunkers to address this.

[Adam Clayman]

Don't worry Sully. You can Stay comfy inside your tight little mindset of expectations in consistency of green speeds, while advocating disfiguring other artists work, all for the sake of faster putting surfaces. Nothing will change, but don't kid yourselves, it is so far from what a true sportsman's mentality should be, it comes off as pampered.

BTW, Less than ten years. That's the very long time Tom references. Sans pros of course.

[Tim Nugent]

Adam, whenever I played it, the pin was upper left. that's only about 30'x40' or about the size of a small tee.  Do they pin the right side for resort play?  If so, by increasing speeds to thepoint where the rightside is unpinnable, doesn't that effectively change the design intent and essentially render a +/- 1,200 sf green?

[Adam Clayman]

Tim, They use to. Admittedly they never keep the greens at optimal speeds for the public, save for June. It's been over 8 1/2 years since caddying there. The public golfer's I saw would eventually make the putt. Why shouldn't a pro be asked to make it? He will get two chances for each putt, one on the way up the hill and one on the way back down. 

[Tim Bert]

A few photos for those that might be a tad less familiar with the green...

[Mark Molyneux]

Let me point out that #14 is the #1 handicap hole at Pebble so Goydos would be giving me a shot there. Can I make 10 to halve? I took no pleasure out of watchng that quintuple. Don't get me wrong. Some 9s are entertaining as hell just not the sorts of nines that were managed at #14. It probably goes back to when I was a kid out at the miniature golf course. There was this one hole that tortured me and it involved a short shot to a hole atop a cone. I'd roll it up and it would roll back down... repeatedly.

I checked an old set of Tour stats from 1983-85 pertaining to Toughest PGA Holes and there sat Pebble Beach Golf Links #14 in a tie with Glen Abbey #6 in 195th place at .172 strokes over par. BTW, from 1983 through 1985, eight scores of triple or worse were recorded at PBGL #14. Eight in three seasons so do we think anything has changed in the past 15 years? Tough golf holes ought to be regarded as tough because of shot values and length and about a dozen other attributes but not because the usable portion of the green is minimal and certainly not because everything surrounding that undersized target runs the ball back into the fairway or back to my feet or away into greenside rough at the bottom of the hill.

Sawgrass 17 is a true test of nerves. Pebble Beach #14 is part that but it also required a large dose of luck. It's not as though the mega scores were the results of very poorly executed shots. The scores of 8 and 9 were not the golf gods' responses to the prideful player who asked too much of his game. At 572 uphill yards, it isn't as though players could bang two huge shots and expect to chip on from the right side. Most everybody was faced with a delicate and properly slippery grooved wedge to a puny target. It struck me as unfair.

I no longer play that infuriating mini golf hole with the cone. At least I could quit after six strokes (local rule) and I frequently did. I remember a green complex on a par 3 at a club where two successive foursomes took bogey IN A SCRAMBLE because the portion of the green that was usable was insufficient and because everything that was "almost good" ran off the green or back to your feet. It's no fun playing like that and it's no fun watching either. In that scamble, I watched from 180 yards away; on Sunday, I watched a very similar process play out on TV. They finally softened the green slope at the club and extended the puttable area. Now it's a very good and much more fair proposition.

I don't think that a lead, which took 67 holes to build, should evaporate within 60 feet of the hole at #68 unless the player does something Bad with a capital "B".

[Mark Molyneux]

Tim!
Thanks for the great pictures. That really brings it into focus, especially the second shot from the front of the green. I've see green fronts like that but usually in very bad dreams. If I get to Pebble, I may just hit three shots and walk away with a general impression of the hole and an X on the card.
Mark

[Tim Bert]

Tim!
Thanks for the great pictures. That really brings it into focus, especially the second shot from the front of the green. I've see green fronts like that but usually in very bad dreams. If I get to Pebble, I may just hit three shots and walk away with a general impression of the hole and an X on the card.
Mark

If you love chipping and putting challenges you won't just walk away.  There are some frustrating moments to be had around the green, but there are an equal number of interesting, exciting outcomes as well.

[JESII]

Don't worry Sully. You can Stay comfy inside your tight little mindset of expectations in consistency of green speeds, while advocating disfiguring other artists work, all for the sake of faster putting surfaces. Nothing will change, but don't kid yourselves, it is so far from what a true sportsman's mentality should be, it comes off as pampered.

BTW, Less than ten years. That's the very long time Tom references. Sans pros of course.

Adam,

My reading comprehension is weaker than my bunker game so forgive me, but, are you serious?


If you're recommending slowing down the 14th green to the point that it's usable in the US Open I wonder if you realize how much less difficult that makes the hole in general...especially now...