Design as hobby & Would you turn down a commission?

[Ronald Montesano]

I heard Ben Crenshaw on XM Radio today (I believe it was "Fairways of Life" on the PGA Tour network) and he made two successive statements that mated to conceive this thread.  The first concerned the genesis of his 1985 partnership with Bill Coore.

"If we keep this as a hobby, instead of a job, we'll do all right."

The second concerned the types of commissions that they accept/have accepted, which I will paraphrase.

//We've chosen projects that have allowed us to work with the best ground available.  We'd prefer not to have to break much ground.//

Hence, my two questions.  For the designers out there, it is obviously a job for you.  Are you still able/do you want to keep the "hobby" perspective as your career unfolds?

Also for the designers, have you ever turned down a commission (less likely in these times) and what might have been the reasoning behind such a daring decision?

I'll hang up and listen.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have turned down a few projects, but mostly because I was too busy to provide the service required or the client appeared to be sorely underfunded or lacked the knowledge to be a good client, both of which could lead to problems and a bad project.

For most of us, getting Sand Hills type land is a once in a lifetime type project, not a requirement to take a project on.  So, more power to CC and TD for being able to have secured more than one of these type of projects.

As to the hobby aspects, I still doodle green designs, etc. nearly every night and day so its still fun for me, even if more and more of those doodles are more theoretical than in days past......

[Brian Phillips]

I walked away from a major 27 hole project in North Africa when something just was not right.  Everything was set up for the family to move over and live in a beautiful beach house, the client had just paid for my family and in-laws to have a holiday there to assure the family about the country and the project.

However, I kept producing drawings and giving sound opinions on site and in meetings without us agreeing the final contractual details.  I decided to walk away and wonder sometimes if it was the right decision.  Two years living on a beautiful white beach in a fantastic house sounds good in this economy now.

I have not yet worked with a client that I do not like and that is one of the important factors when I say yes to work with a project.  If I cannot have a laugh while working on my passion then I would rather do something else.  I don't want to be the Andre Agassi of GCA, I want to do it because I love it and enjoy working with the people I am designing and building a golf course for.

If I am enjoying it then the client is the best possible service from me as well.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Like Brian I have always got on with my clients and largely they have remained friends. Like Jeff I still doodle green designs.. I consider I am practising. I have walked away from several jobs, I just dont want to go to South East Asia and I dont want to do redesign stuff in Bradford ie (200 miles away). I have worked on very low budget courses but would not do so now, I would want to work to a reasonable construction budget and be sure that the materials dont scupper the project.

[Lester George]

I have turned down several projects and would do so now if I got that "uneasy feeling".  More related to how I perceive the clients involvement and wether or not I want to be involved with that particular client.  Some people you're just not comfortable with.  I can honestly say that I have never regretted any of those turn downs. 

I have "fired five clients after working with them and finding out one thing or another about the personalities or ethics.

I can also honestly say I have never considered it a hobby.  Although I do love coming to work every day and have (for the most part) for 23 years.  I am almost positive I would never do a design for no fee, but I would trade for something interesting or some unique position like that.

Lester

[Tom_Doak]

Not even three years ago there were hundreds of potential jobs out there, and it was very easy to decide to pursue only the ones that were most interesting to you.  That's pretty much the way I have always done it, although it was easier to take that approach before I had several guys to look after.

Right now it is much harder to take the same attitude, but still, I'm not likely to sign up to do a job unless I can find something exciting about it.  After eight months of no real construction, though, I think it's safe to say it wouldn't take as much to get me excited right now.

I think it's obvious that any architect who spends time on Golf Club Atlas still looks at golf architecture as a hobby.  However there are a lot of golf architects who wouldn't even think of coming here, and you've got to wonder if they all still really love what they do.

[Robert Emmons]

Tom,

Your last point is very good and rings true...Thx...RHE

[Ronald Montesano]

Without trying to thread-jack my own thread (proving my own preposterousness...or is it prepostericity?) does non-participation on GCA automatically disqualify a working architect from loving what they do?

[JMEvensky]

Without trying to thread-jack my own thread (proving my own preposterousness...or is it prepostericity?) does non-participation on GCA automatically disqualify a working architect from loving what they do?

I took the comment the opposite way.That those willing to post here enjoy talking about/teaching design as well as doing it for a living.Kind of like those posting here think it's interesting enough to share the "inside baseball" parts as opposed to those who may look at it as more job than adventure.

Having now threadjacked your threadjack,am I now postposterous?

[David_Tepper]

While I can appreciate the gist of Crenshaw's comments, I am not sure I would want to hire any professional to do anything for me who was practicing their craft as a "hobby."  The world is full of dilettantes.  Do we need to encourage more? 

[Ronald Montesano]

JM,
You're going to need to elaborate to convince me...but I'll listen/read.

David,
My guess is that "hobby" may not have been meant in the literal sense.  Perhaps his gentleness was speaking of the spirit of the hobby, where pure intentions reign, as opposed to business, where machiavellian instincts often take over.

[David_Tepper]

Ronald -

As I said, I get the gist of Crenshaw's comments. My guess is Mr. Coore likely sees their business practice as less of a "hobby" than Mr. Crenshaw does!

DT

[Mike Nuzzo]

I think I can turn almost any property into something very good
I turn down the clients that don't pay me or stop calling me back
I don't sketch greens on napkins - not sure what the point is unless it is on a real piece of land

[Tom_Doak]

Without trying to thread-jack my own thread (proving my own preposterousness...or is it prepostericity?) does non-participation on GCA automatically disqualify a working architect from loving what they do?

Ronald:

All it means for certain is that those other guys have more interesting hobbies (or other, better things to do with their time) than answering your questions.

I guarantee you Pete Dye still loves what he does, but he is not going to waste his time here.

[Tim Nugent]

My take on Ben's remark is that, without money entering into the equation, he can work in a purer state, no ulterior motives or influences.  My guess this is how most of us would like to be able to functiion.  Unfortunately, we don't have the wherewithall to pull it off.
I've often wondered why some who do, haven't been their own client.  I was lucky enough to develop and operate a course over a 15 yr period.  Having that kind of freedom to tweek and refine it over time for the betterment of the course/playing experience gives one a bit of the insight of Ross/PH#2 (only didn't have to answer to Tufts).

[Ben Sims]

Without trying to thread-jack my own thread (proving my own preposterousness...or is it prepostericity?) does non-participation on GCA automatically disqualify a working architect from loving what they do?

Ronald,

The only thing more fun than turnin' and burnin' is watching kids at airshows when you hang out with them, throw them in the jet, and tell them how maybe, one day, if they study and sacrifice, they too can live the dream.

It's just that here at GCA the kids are actually grown-ups, and the heroes are guys that draw and push dirt.  

[Ronald Montesano]

Ben,

Amazingly, I understand the turnin' and burnin' part and am in awe of you for having that God-given ability and man-generated dedication and sacrifice.

What I don't understand is how the kids being grown-ups and the heroes being guys that draw and push dirt, has anything to do with the hobby aspect nor the "don't contribute to GCA" aspect.

If you're saying that your career in the service is still your hobby, then I'm a little closer to understanding.

Thanks for your patience.

[Tom_Doak]

My take on Ben's remark is that, without money entering into the equation, he can work in a purer state, no ulterior motives or influences.  My guess this is how most of us would like to be able to functiion.  Unfortunately, we don't have the wherewithall to pull it off.
I've often wondered why some who do, haven't been their own client.

Tim:

I've wondered that, too.  Some of them do get involved financially in a project sometime in their lives, but it's the exception rather than the rule.

Many of them are just too used to having things handed to them for free, or being paid to show up someplace.  I know of a couple of instances where someone expected their former alums or guys they sponsored to put a little money into a new course project, and every single player said they couldn't do it.

[Ben Sims]

Ben,

Amazingly, I understand the turnin' and burnin' part and am in awe of you for having that God-given ability and man-generated dedication and sacrifice.

What I don't understand is how the kids being grown-ups and the heroes being guys that draw and push dirt, has anything to do with the hobby aspect nor the "don't contribute to GCA" aspect.

If you're saying that your career in the service is still your hobby, then I'm a little closer to understanding.

Thanks for your patience.

Ronald,

I get pumped sometimes and don't make my point.  Sorry.

What I'm saying is that there are tons of dudes that hate standing around at airshows, talking to civilians about what to us is the more mundane and generic aspects of the job.  Do they hate flying and/or only look at it as a job?  No, I don't think so.  Maybe they just don't want to deal with smelly kids and lax parents.

Same can be said for the archies that don't participate in GCA.  I'm sure they still see a hobby aspect to it, maybe they just don't want guys like me asking a zillion questions. 

[Ronald Montesano]

A.  That's the first thing I love about this site; we can brazenly ask each other what the heck we mean (or ask why we don't understand) and we will answer the question without trepidation nor offense.

B.  Thanks for clearing it up.  I have parents of students and athletes apologize to me for taking up my time, when I clearly chose teaching and coaching because I love them.

C.  I agree that architects don't necessarily have to participate in GCA in order to love their craft/hobby.  It sure would be nice to have Hurdzan, Fazio, Hills, Jones, Jones or Nicklaus chime in from time to time.

[Tim Nugent]

Tom, I have a theory.  Being solo competitors, that they view golf design as an extention of that competition. ie. who can do more, who has more top awards, who can generate the highest fees, who can get the best sites, etc.  And GD/GW are only too happy to keep score (as long as it sells mags).  Plus the continuation of the celebraty that they become used to.  This is why they require staffs journeyman architects to carry out the commissions and don't immerse themselves to the degree that one would find with non-marquee practitioners.

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:

I'm sure that is true, although even team-sport guys get into the same rut when they retire ... above all, COMPETITION is in their DNA's.

The scariest quote I have heard about golf architecture in a long time is Nicklaus' quote [repeated in several places over the last couple of years] that today he competes with a piece of property.  God, what a way to put it!  If I were a client, I would not want my piece of property to "lose" to Jack.

[Garland Bayley]

Tim:

I'm sure that is true, although even team-sport guys get into the same rut when they retire ... above all, COMPETITION is in their DNA's.

The scariest quote I have heard about golf architecture in a long time is Nicklaus' quote [repeated in several places over the last couple of years] that today he competes with a piece of property.  God, what a way to put it!  If I were a client, I would not want my piece of property to "lose" to Jack.

Problem is I reckon Jack is the one keeping score and he figures he wins every time

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tim:

The scariest quote I have heard about golf architecture in a long time is Nicklaus' quote [repeated in several places over the last couple of years] that today he competes with a piece of property.  God, what a way to put it!  If I were a client, I would not want my piece of property to "lose" to Jack.

In his prime, he would close out competitors by the 14th hole, or so. I wonder where that would have left his designs for the last few holes?

[Kalen Braley]

Without trying to thread-jack my own thread (proving my own preposterousness...or is it prepostericity?) does non-participation on GCA automatically disqualify a working architect from loving what they do?

Ronald:

All it means for certain is that those other guys have more interesting hobbies (or other, better things to do with their time) than answering your questions.

I guarantee you Pete Dye still loves what he does, but he is not going to waste his time here.

Tom does this mean you consider your time here to be a waste as well? 

Very interesting topic Ronald, thanks for bringing this one up.  Like any other profession I would guess the ones who are passionate about it, likely have the best chance at excelling at it.  Granted you can also get by if you have a name brand like Palmer or Nicklaus,  not to suggest they aren't passionate about it either, just saying they wouldn't neccessarily have to be.

I've always thought it would be very neat to try my hand at it.  I still swear to this day, if I could semi-retire, I would offer to work for anyone in the biz and do it for a cheap wage just to get a feel for the day to day stuff and watch a course evolve from initial site vist to completed project.