[Bill Satterfield]

Two weeks ago I got back from a trip to Arizona.  The course I probably enjoyed the most was Desert Highlands followed by Estancia.  To my surprise, I was a bit underwhelmed by Blackstone and generally I'm a big Jim Engh fan. 

I had the chance to play Desert Forest but I caught it on a rainy day and the course hadn't been overseeded so there weren't real clear definitions between the fairway and the rough and the visuals from the tee didn't have the kind of contrast that it usually has.  All things considered, I didn't get to fully appreciate Desert Forest for what it is.  It has received great praise over the years, including from Brad Klein.

I would really enjoy some commentary from those that have played so that I can get greater perspective on the course.  With the wet conditions there wasn't much of a ground game to be had which is what I understand is one of Desert Forest's greatest qualities.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Desert Forest is  special place. A thoroughly enjoyable experience. I played there about 3 years when it was overseeded in prime winter season and fast and firm. If played from the proper tees, it's very playable but still challenging.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Desert Forest is indeed a special place, what a wonderful golf course.
The layout is sublime, the bunkering so precise and the green complexes very fair but equally challenging.
What I like so much about the place is that the course simply flows, easy to walk, tremendous use of the subltle terrain changes and the positioning of the par threes optimising the small elevation changes that exist on a "flat" piece of land.

the angles of the dogleg holes are great for risk reward teeshots, and the use of the natural flaura to pretty up a desert course fantastic.
Loved the course, loved the clubhouse..great place and my favourite desert course by a long way.

[Mike Hendren]

Perhaps the greatest "bread and butter" golf course in America.   When it plays scorching fast (it was the firmest and fastest golf course I've ever played) it is highly demanding off the tee, forcing actual club selection and dictating that one either work the ball or carefully choose a line.  While perhaps slightly  (ever so) overrated, it is an iconic golf course that married golden age architectural elements with the unique desert environment.  Lawrence deserves credit because no one had previously done that, and I'm not aware that anyone has done it since given the fact that virtually all desert courses are decidedly "modern" and theatrical.

I have Brad Klein's book on the club and course and highly recommend it.

Mike

[Andy Troeger]

Desert Forest is  special place. A thoroughly enjoyable experience. I played there about 3 years when it was overseeded in prime winter season and fast and firm. If played from the proper tees, it's very playable but still challenging.

Ok, I'll bite. I have a hard time seeing how Desert Forest is playable for anyone that doesn't hit the ball exceedingly straight, especially when fast and firm. Every time this comes up I ask why it gets a pass for being exceedingly narrow off the tee, but maybe I'm the only one on the board that finds that to be true. Recovery from the desert isn't likely and I would never tee it up there without a box of golf balls in the bag and I can't say as I find that type of golf enjoyable. The course does have good greens and nice movement, but the lack of playability ruined it for me.

[Joel Zuckerman]

I enjoyed Desert Forest the one time I played it some years ago, and its most notable element is how very much it differs from the "standard" desert golf experience at La Estancia, Desert Mountain, Troon, Quintero, etc.

[Mike Hendren]

Ok, I'll bite. I have a hard time seeing how Desert Forest is playable for anyone that doesn't hit the ball exceedingly straight, especially when fast and firm. Every time this comes up I ask why it gets a pass for being exceedingly narrow off the tee, but maybe I'm the only one on the board that finds that to be true. Recovery from the desert isn't likely and I would never tee it up there without a box of golf balls in the bag and I can't say as I find that type of golf enjoyable. The course does have good greens and nice movement, but the lack of playability ruined it for me.

Andy, I think that's a legitimate comment and the primary reason I would cite for the course being "slightly" overrated.  It is my understanding that six hour rounds were commonplace during the 1990 U. S. Senior Amateur held there.   The course does not suit the modern game as well as it suits its membership, which I'm guessing is relatively older and bunts more than it bombs. 

Then again, there aren't many courses out there where accuracy is at a premium from the tee and where club selection from every tee is part of the strategy

Mike

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Desert Forest is one of my all time favorite courses and places for golf anywhere.  While its environment is obvious, like others have said, it’s not like other desert courses.  One could easily pick this course up and move it anywhere and enjoy what it offers:  Angles and options off the tee (i.e. to avoid running thru many fairways), enough width to force picking the correct side for the best approach to the green, entertaining greens complexes, and challenging putting surfaces.  I frankly don’t see the course being too “narrow off the tee”, but do agree that if one strays beyond the first cut of rough they are dead, much like at Pine Valley and Prairie Dunes here in the US and any number of links courses in GB&I.

To me DFGC is the desert version of a course like Crystal Downs or Valley Club of Montecito or Prairie Dunes or even Seminole… a “golf club” with a very good mixture of long and short holes, ground game is definitely in play, plenty of challenge for scratch golfers, and plenty of fun for the rest of us.  And while I’ve enjoyed some of the other courses in the Valley of the Sun, DFGC is still my #1.

[Andy Troeger]

Mike,
I think that your comments are very fair and I certainly don't begrudge anyone the right to enjoy their round at Desert Forest or to think the course is a great one. For me, I don't see there being enough playable width to create interesting strategies and angles from the fairways--I just tried to find grass of any color. The fellow that I played with shot 73 so he proved that its playable for a scratch golfer. I'm just surprised that its not more controversial on this board--I'm the only one that seems to want to challenge it.

Wayne,
Interesting comments. I see much more of a parallel between DF and Prairie Dunes than between DF and The Valley Club or Crystal Downs at least in terms of the golf courses. The Valley Club isn't a tough course and Crystal Downs' difficulty mainly resides around the greens. If I had to pick one course to play forever, The Valley Club would merit strong consideration. Prairie Dunes does also severly penalize wayward driving, but I found the corridors there to be much wider than Desert Forest once you include the rough at PD. I still am not a fan of the gunch there--I'd rather have the stuff at Crystal Downs or Ballyneal that allows for recovery options.

[Jim Sweeney]

DF is still the best in the Valley of the Sun IMO, and I have played most of the courses that are mentioned among the Arizona elite. One observation is that there is more room from the tees than there appears on many holes and this was one of the attractions for me. It seemed that the challenges from the tees were more psycological- not that one did not need to play a good shot, however.

It's hard for me to compare to Crystal et al as some have done here. I'll just add that I've played many of Lawrence's SW courses no other comes close to DF. UNM South might if it had some of DF's advantages like location, budget, and tightly controlled play.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I happen to be very biased because I play there frequently, but it is a masterpiece golf course.  The driving corridors are narrow, but work the lay of the land as well as just about anywhere in the world.  For those who have problems with finding the fairway, club down off the tee, or better yet, how about some lessons.  Sometimes when a course exposes a weakness, there is a great opportunity to improve.  With this thought in mind, the club now has a new member not known for great driving who thought that practicing on this course will help elevate the game to super elite status.
This is how the course loooked today

[Andy Troeger]

Gents,

As stated before, my issue is not with the narrowness of the fairways--it is the lack of recovery from the desert COMBINED with the narrow fairways. I'm all for testing the driving game--but it shouldn't be a reload frequently when you miss a fairway on either side. Desert Forest is hardly the only course that I critique for this reason, its just the only one that gets praised on this website.

Black Mesa here in NM gets critiqued for being too narrow and having too penal of desert areas. Desert Forest is narrower and offers less recovery. I'll stand by my comments.

[Mike Cirba]

You know, I'm all for making courses tougher to keep up with technology and all, and unfortunately I haven't played Desert Forest as of yet, but using man-eating, carnivorous beasts as tee markers might be a bit too penal, so I do certainly see Andy's point.

[Mike Hendren]

Robert, I'm glad to see they are no long over-seeding the fairways.   I believe the winter-greening was a recent practice as historically they've let it go dormant in the winter. 

Mike

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Your comments are spot on ... DF is a bit too narrow and then complicates the matter with limited recovery options.

For all the bean bag negative talk about Black Mesa -- DF should be judged in a far different light.

DF can either thin out the periphery elements or widen the landing areas.

One of the two would go a long ways for me.

Bill S:

If you want a really top notch layout to play that provides what I believe you are seeking head to Whisper Rock -- the 36 holes there are superb -- especially the original 18 by Lefty and Gary Stephenson. Simply design dynamite !

[ward peyronnin]

Desert Forest was unique to any of the courses i played in Az.

I  kept extensive notes and it ha so many of the subtle elements a Yeaman's Hall has like slightly uphill landing areas , spined greens, elevated greens (like Dornoch) and was the closest feel for an inland course to a scottish flavor i have experienced.

Small oval flat bottomed bunkers flanking/framing greens and making no pretense of an artistic or monster effect; just starightforward hazard that you pay for breaching.

I respectfully disagree that it is too narrow and no chance for recovery . Compared to Stone Canyon or Troon and etc where if you wander you ricochet off rocks and canyons you actually can get it back into play if at all fortunate.

Very dear short par fives and fours. nothing muscular everything neat and subtle. Why do you think the USGA loves it? They aren't chumps when it comes to course selection and i looked at scores for events there and they rarely beat up on this little bitch

[Andy Troeger]

Desert Forest was unique to any of the courses i played in Az.

I  kept extensive notes and it ha so many of the subtle elements a Yeaman's Hall has like slightly uphill landing areas , spined greens, elevated greens (like Dornoch) and was the closest feel for an inland course to a scottish flavor i have experienced.

Small oval flat bottomed bunkers flanking/framing greens and making no pretense of an artistic or monster effect; just starightforward hazard that you pay for breaching.

I respectfully disagree that it is too narrow and no chance for recovery . Compared to Stone Canyon or Troon and etc where if you wander you ricochet off rocks and canyons you actually can get it back into play if at all fortunate.

Very dear short par fives and fours. nothing muscular everything neat and subtle. Why do you think the USGA loves it? They aren't chumps when it comes to course selection and i looked at scores for events there and they rarely beat up on this little bitch

Ward,
Comparing the course to Stone Canyon and I'm assuming Troon North (?) would be comparing DF to different versions of the same problem. Possibly my biggest criticism of Stone Canyon is the lack of recovery from the desert although I would argue that at least most holes there have reasonable width. Troon North is not a favorite of mine especially given the housing development encroachment. I'd rather play a course like We-Ko-Pa that truly does give room to drive the ball but still brings angles and strategy into play. That's why its the only Scottsdale area course in my personal top fifty, while there are a lot of courses in the area that fall between #51-150 on my list.

[Sean Leary]

Andy,

Do you really rank your courses up to that level(150)in order? I can't even rank my top 10 or 20 in order:)

[Andy Troeger]

Sean,
Not sure I should admit this, but I actually rank every course I've played (320). I was obsessed with lists as a kid, and things evidently didn't change! 

[Tom Yost]

I had the opportunity to play DF twice this summer.  I found it to be a wonderful, old school, traditional style course placed in a high desert setting.

Unlike a lot of the modern desert/target designs that overload the senses with bold, flashy features, Desert Forest reveals itself in a much more subtle manner.  I think a few repeat plays are needed to gain appreciation.

As for the perceived narrowness, I do acknowledge the course puts a premium on the accurate tee ball, but I didn't find it to be significantly more penal than many of the other desert/target designs of the region.  If you are spraying the ball, you would be suffering similar difficulties no matter.  I do think that the thick native vegetation tends to inhibit recovery. Where some courses have done some clearing, Desert Forest's off turf areas abound in ball eating flora.

I also think much of the narrow feel is gained by visual deception.  Many holes offer tee shots with a limited view of the fairway, which can induce doubt in the golfer's mind and create tension in the swing.

The routing is intimate however the presence of the aforementioned vegetation does isolate each hole from the others. It is rare to have a glimpse of any other golfers when playing DF.  My favorite features would be the greens and the bunkering along with the natural movement of the land which lends itself perfectly to golf.

[Jud_T]

Andy:

Your comments are spot on ... DF is a bit too narrow and then complicates the matter with limited recovery options.

For all the bean bag negative talk about Black Mesa -- DF should be judged in a far different light.

DF can either thin out the periphery elements or widen the landing areas.

One of the two would go a long ways for me.

Matt,

Thanx for the color...This is quite helpful...Given the fact that I tend to agree with a large percentage of your opinions (i.e. European Club and Kingsley, etc....) as well as my average abilities with a driver, I will drop DF a notch on my Desert must-play list...Wonder if anyone agrees with TomD's original comments in the Guide that it's only the lack of really intriguing greens that keeps DF out of the highest order (paraphrasing)?

[Mike Hendren]

Your comments are spot on ... DF is a bit too narrow and then complicates the matter with limited recovery options.

I guess when you fashion yourself a 767 most runways look too small.

Big hitter, The Ward.

Bogey

[Jerry Kluger]

Bill: I am surprised at your disappointment with Blackstone as I think it is far more interesting architecturally than most courses in the Phoenix area.  The course is always in superb condition with some really good par 3s and creative par 5s.  There are a couple of risk/reward short par 4s and the bunkering is original and strategic.  The only criticism that I have heard is from those who do not like the containment mounding which I can certainly understand but to me, it is more to define the hole as opposed to being a crutch. 

[Bill_McBride]

Gents,

As stated before, my issue is not with the narrowness of the fairways--it is the lack of recovery from the desert COMBINED with the narrow fairways. I'm all for testing the driving game--but it shouldn't be a reload frequently when you miss a fairway on either side. Desert Forest is hardly the only course that I critique for this reason, its just the only one that gets praised on this website.

Black Mesa here in NM gets critiqued for being too narrow and having too penal of desert areas. Desert Forest is narrower and offers less recovery. I'll stand by my comments.

LOL!  Anybody who says Black Mesa is too narrow (except for 2nd landing area of #16!) just wasn't paying attention.  There is a ton of width there.

[Sean Leary]

Sean,
Not sure I should admit this, but I actually rank every course I've played (320). I was obsessed with lists as a kid, and things evidently didn't change! 

Paging Dr. Katz...

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