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Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« on: February 14, 2010, 06:41:38 PM »
So apparently Karsten Solheim is sounding like he won't back down on the agreement from 1993 where the tour decided to accept grandfathering in these clubs, so banning them would probably lead to another legal fight.

So why doesn't the tour just ban pros from using ANY club over 20 years old?  Other than the guys using the Pings to get around the new rule, would it affect anyone?  Maybe there are one or two guys using an old putter - if so, an exception could perhaps be put into the rule for putters.  That would be reasonable, as putters are treated specially in the equipment rules anyway.

I'm sure the equipment makers (other than that jackass Solheim) would not oppose this.  After all, having pros win using clubs from the 80s or earlier wouldn't exactly help them in their marketing spiel that everyone needs to play the latest and greatest equipment for best results :)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2010, 07:28:25 PM »
I think that Karsten is dead...sounds like John Solheim of whom you speak.
Coming in 2024
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~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2010, 07:30:12 PM »
...and I have to disagree with your labeling Solheim a burro, a mule, a jackass.  He may be stubborn and he may like saddles, but he is the farthest thing from a jackass around.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2010, 08:31:03 PM »
If you own a business, develop a superior product, fight a huge legal battle......would you give it all away for nothing?

Yeah, me either.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2010, 08:59:05 PM »
If you own a business, develop a superior product, fight a huge legal battle......would you give it all away for nothing?

Yeah, me either.

Am I missing something? If I go to the golf shop, can I buy a new set of Ping Eye2 irons with legal grooves that exceed the new standard in volume?

I say boycott Ping.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2010, 09:09:37 PM »
Not an expert ,but I think the only grandfathered eye2's were built before the date of settlement.Those made since are treated the same. My impression is that these are good people and a good company.I have found their products of superior quality and value. for some reason that I can't put my finger on,I sided with Ping in their battle but thought calaway was out of line.Maybe hypocritical on my part?

Mark Molyneux

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2010, 09:22:19 PM »
I have mixed feelings on this "exception" for Ping clubs. One thing that I've always believed about the Rules of Golf is that they can work to your advantage on occasion and this may just be one of those occasions. Okay, so the Square Groove exception is out of a court of law and not the USGA but the law of the land, specifically as it applies to these wedges seems to have been recognized by the USGA and the PGA. The implication seems to be that what Phil did wasn't technically against the Rules. Whatever his fellow competitors may feel about the spirit of the rule, they don't have a legitimate cause to be calling Phil (or anybody else with a Ping Eye 2 (1991 vintage) wedge in the bag a "cheater". The intent of the PGA seems to have been to intervene subtly to discourage a bomb-and-gouge approach to the game. There seems to be a variety of opinions about whether they were even headed in the proper direction, banning square grooves. Solheim was an engineer and a businessman. He was protecting his interests, just as the PGA was probably trying to protect theirs. It is probably an unfair advantage for two players to be hitting from virtually the same spot in wet rough if one has "the latest conforming wedge" and the other has "the old trusty Ping Eye 2" which could suck it back even if the ball landed in the parking lot. But... whose fault is that? Certainly not Karsten Solheim's and probably not the player with the legally approved Ping Eye 2. Maybe it's the guy, mired in respect for the spirit of the rules who refuses to employ equipment that gives him the best odds of winning.

I haven't read the legal opinion and I hate the idea that lawyers might run the game of golf. They've already screwed up enough of my favorite activities. Still, I wonder if the PGA tour could agree to exclude square grooves from tournament play without risking another law suit? I can't believe that Solheim was as conserned about what a couple hundred guys on tour might have in their bags. He was far more concerned about what the millions of non-tour players purchase and use. He was probably a tad resentful about being dictated to retroactively regarding the sorts of equipment the tour wanted to render obsolete by fiat.

Personally, I can't muster enough righteousness to take clubs out of my bag until the rule book and the courts "... pry that wedge from my cold dead hands" (Heston 1987). I think the Tour's concern for the integrity of the game is managed much more easily if they address the playing characteristics of the golf ball. If they can conspire with Iron Byron to limit things like launch velocity and  carry distance, why not insist on a maximum spin rate irrespective of the sorts of grooves on a club?

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2010, 09:44:33 PM »
If you own a business, develop a superior product, fight a huge legal battle......would you give it all away for nothing?

Yeah, me either.

Am I missing something? If I go to the golf shop, can I buy a new set of Ping Eye2 irons with legal grooves that exceed the new standard in volume?

I say boycott Ping.


Garland, you can use any set of Ping Eye 2's you want until 2024....hundreds of sets are available on eBay in case you'd like a backup or two.  You want to boycott a company because less than a handful of PGA Tour players want to toe some imaginary bullshit line in the sand?  Give me a break.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2010, 10:33:22 PM »
I'm not giving up my 1985 Ping Eye 2's for anyone  ;D

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2010, 11:01:52 PM »
Whoa!  Lots of misinformation here.

Let's first hop into the time machine and go back to 1984.  Ping had a new, competely legal, U-groove design in its Eye 2 irons and wedges.  They were a medium-sized hit in the retail market, and they had a modest tour-player staff including Bob Gilder and Ken Green.  While the USGA had looked at, and approved, the original Ping Eye 2, Ping decided on its own to make a minor, conservative-appearing modification to the design; they "radiused" the groove edges, to soften the square grooves a bit.  (Complaints of sharp square grooves shredding soft balatas were common in those days.  Karsten Solheim, sensitive to his retail customers' wishes, sought to alleviate the problem.)

But without intending to do so, Ping had crated a big problem.  The newly "radiused" grooves resulted in an unintended condition -- the space between the grooves was now reduced to illegality under a rather obscure formulation on the part of the USGA.  How the USGA was alerted to this issue is a bit of a mystery to me -- it might be revealed in old court records, I don't know.  (Rumors, not much worth worrying about now, held that other old-school manufacturers like Wilson, Spalding, MacGregor or Hogan had complained.  I have no knowledge to substantiate that.)  

In any case, the USGA felt that it was constrained to enforce its rules.  "Close" is just not acceptable in golf.  Even if, as the USGA suspected, the changed Ping design wasn't a measurable advantage over other designs.  The USGA had its measurements.  The Ping clubs didn't measure up.  Moreover, the USGA contended, if only Ping had submitted samples for apporval, all problems about having put large numbers of the Ping Eye 2's into the retail marketplace could all have been avoided.  Ping made the design change on its own without asking.

Ping had its own arguments.  Ping contended that the only way that the USGA could reach its obscure formulation of an illegality was to have constructed and arbitrary 30 degree angle as a marker from which to meaure groove widths and to achieve any maesurement of what was known as the "land to groove " ratio.

This was the status quo as the two sides faced off in litigation.  Ping felt that it could not back down and leave its thousands of retial buyers of Eye 2's hanging.  The USGA thought that it could be the end of its authority if it lost in litigation over something as basic as golf club regulations.

Karsten Solheim had many quirky ideas, about engineering, design, and manufacturing.  He was a genius in many respects.  But one of his quirkiest ideas was who to select as counsel in the Eye 2 litigation.  Karsten selected a personal injury lawyer from Rhode Island, Leonard Decof.  It was (in my personal opinion) a fateful decision.  Decof outraged many from the outset of the Eye 2 litigation.  He named as defendants the individual Executive officers of the USGA, and the R&A.  He had a process server serve a summons and Complaint on Michael Bonalleck at a Walker Cup dinner in the United States.  The Executives feared for their personal assets, as Ping alleged treble damages (millions, is what Ping claimed) under the Sherman Anti-Trust Act.

Ultimately, the two sides were able to settle the case before the start of trial.  I have been informed by our fellow GCAer Tom Paul, that he has it on good authority, that despite all of the ingrained acrimony (much of it emanting from Decof)  Karsten's son John, who was by then moving into Ping's leadership, and Frank Thomas, the USGA Technical Director, were able to deal on a level of mutual respect.  A compromise was reached, in which the Eye 2 design was changed to be conforming for all the future, and alll old-production clubs were grandfathered for all time.

In the meantime, the PGA tour, Inc., under the leadership of Deane Beman, took its own action.  It sought to ban the Eye 2 as well as all other U-grovve designs from tour play.  Ping, already embroiled with the USGA (and not yet settled), sued the Tour.  The case was captioned "Bob Gilder, et al, v. PGA Tour, Inc., et al."  A major part of Ping's argument was that equipment that was banned on Tour would be devastated in the retail marketplace.  The Tour argued that it had the power, like any professional sports league, to enact its own rules.  The Tour litigation went pretty far; to the eve of trial.  In the meantime, there was a major evidentiary hearing in the U.S. District Court in Phoenix.  And a ruling from the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for Ping on an important preliminary ruling.  Ping was winning a lot of the pre-trial battles, essentially, and the Tour was getting a bit scared.  On the eve of its trial date with Gilder, et al, the Tour settled.  The Tour agreed to simply be bound by whatever the USGA ruled on equipment.  

What is of immense interest now, for the first time in 20 years, is that there was a provision buried in the Tour's Settlement Agreement, that would allow it to essentially override a USGA equipment provision if it were shown to be necessary for the Tour, as decided by a panel of pre-selected individuals.  It is that provision that has now come to the world's attention.

It has all been an unfortunate black eye for the USGA this year.  The conventinal wisdom is that the USGA's groove-regulation rollout has been incompetent.  There is much popular confusion about thow the groove rule actually works.  Then last fall, Callaway submitted some prototype wedges with a still-proprietary design that conformed to the new groove rules in all technical respects, but which was so successfu in producing old-style spin, that the USGA ruled the protos as being non-confomring, and immediately amended the specification to make sure that they would remain illegal.  That affair apparently p.o.'d the Callaway designers and their star talent, Phil Mickelson, enough to prompt Phil to pull out some of his old collegiate-era Ping L wedges and put them into play at Riviera earlier this year.  And, wherein Scott McCarron helped Phil's p.r. stunt by calling the act one of "cheating," which was wrong in every way, and which got much additional ink for the story.  Phil promptly got his apology from McCarron and then announced that he wouldn't use the Ping whlle the USGA worked things out, an oh by the way the USGA's groove rule was ridiculous and oh yes Phil wanted to show his respect for all of the other tour players who were so good to the Mickelsons this time last year when Amy got her breast cancer diagnosis.  Uhhuh.

So here we are.  With the USGA again taking the lead role in doing everyone's dirty work in regulating equipment, and taking all kinds of crap no matter what it does.  Currently, this is a problem only for the Tour.  But of course, other tournaments, outside of the Tour, are looking to the USGA.  The Masters, the USGA's-own U.S. Open, and the PGA Championship would all like to have a ruling on the Eye 2 usage issue.

In the meantime, I do not think much of the controversy, since only a handful of guys, all of them Ping staffers or former Eye 2 players, are even using the old Eye 2's.  It is just not that big of a deal, I think.  If the USGA technical people and rules saff didn't anticipate this, it is because they might rightly have observed, long ago, that "only a handful of guys will even bother with them..."  They'd have been right!

« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 12:33:08 PM by Chuck Brown »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2010, 11:05:11 PM »
If you own a business, develop a superior product, fight a huge legal battle......would you give it all away for nothing?

Yeah, me either.

Am I missing something? If I go to the golf shop, can I buy a new set of Ping Eye2 irons with legal grooves that exceed the new standard in volume?

I say boycott Ping.


Garland, you can use any set of Ping Eye 2's you want until 2024....hundreds of sets are available on eBay in case you'd like a backup or two.  You want to boycott a company because less than a handful of PGA Tour players want to toe some imaginary bullshit line in the sand?  Give me a break.

My point is that Ping will make no new club sales from insisting on the settlement staying in place that keeps these irons legal. It would seem to me that they want to keep the settlement in place for the free publicity. Well publicity can work two ways. It can also tee people off. You can have all the break you want, but I won't ever by a product from Ping again.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 11:15:40 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Patrick_Mucci

Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2010, 11:11:02 PM »
It's the BALL, stupid, the BALL, not the grooves.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2010, 11:14:44 PM »
It's the BALL, stupid, the BALL, not the grooves.

Patrick, if you are calling me stupid, then your nurse is as homely as they come, and I don't know why you haven't tried to escape the asylum yet.
 :P



 ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2010, 11:16:30 PM »
It's the BALL, stupid, the BALL, not the grooves.

Certainly, no matter whether one thinks that "it's the ball," or if someone like Peter Kostis wants to blame "fitness" or training, or big drivers or anything else, THE BALL is by far the easiest thing to re-regulate...

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2010, 11:52:12 PM »
It's the BALL, stupid, the BALL, not the grooves.

Certainly, no matter whether one thinks that "it's the ball," or if someone like Peter Kostis wants to blame "fitness" or training, or big drivers or anything else, THE BALL is by far the easiest thing to re-regulate...

Technically, it is the easiest to re-regulate. However, given the number of patents the ball makers have taken out, and the amount they are fighting each other over them, it may be quite the hornet's nest to re-regulate.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2010, 11:53:56 PM »
Just to clarify, I'm not making any judgement about whether Ping was in the right or wrong back during the late 80s.  My beef with them is that NOW, when if they believed in the integrity of the game, they could allow the special exception carved out for those late 80s Ping Eye2 irons to be rescinded.  That would solve the issue neatly, as those irons would be illegal today (on the PGA Tour, and in 2024 for everyone) under the new rules.  But even though they obviously don't make a dime on these clubs they sold 20 years ago, they have refused to do this, which puts the Tour in a bind.  Ping talks about "innovation" but my recollection is that they introduced the change to the grooves to reduce "shredding" of the cover, which used to be a problem when artificial balata appeared on the scene in the 80s.  It was only later that players discovered it really helped out of the rough.

Regardless of what Patrick thinks, the ball has little to do with the ability of pros to suck the ball back when hitting out of the rough, something that used to be quite impossible even with a balata ball (though I'll agree the ball is responsible for the "bomb" part of bomb and gouge, since having drivers that are almost all carry even when hit in the fairway means you effectively lose no distance by driving it in the rough - when roll was a bigger component of total driving distance then hitting into the rough induced a distance penalty, in addition to whatever difficulty gets added by having to play from the rough)

Anyway, according to several pros, there are a lot of guys going on EBay to look for old Pings, so the net effect of this all may well end up that nearly everyone on tour is playing circa late 80s irons (or at least wedges) to avoid the spirit of the rules.  I'm not calling Phil or anyone else a cheater, they are "taking advantage of the rules" like Tiger with the boulder, any golfer who has decided to take relief from an area of GUR even given a perfect lie within it because of the advantage they could derive in their line of play via legal relief, etc.  Sometimes there's no way to close such a loophole, but I hope in this case there is.  Otherwise there was no point to changing the rules, because there were enough Ping Eye2s produced and no doubt sitting in garages all over the country that the pro tour and top amateur ranks could be well supplied for decades.

I suppose Ping could consider this a victory of sorts, having a large majority of players playing at least one or two of their clubs would be good advertising fodder.  I would guess few among the masses of average golfers who buy Titleists because its well known via advertising that its the #1 ball on tour would know why so many tour players are playing Pings, or that they are playing two decade old Pings and not new ones.  Regardless, the advertising benefit of being able to say "more golfers on tour have Pings in their bag than any other brand" would probably outweigh the distaste of the Garland Bayleys of the world.  I wouldn't go so far as him to boycott Ping, but I've never liked any Ping club I've ever tried so me boycotting them would be like a Hindu boycotting McDonalds :)

If we could for the moment ignore all the background about this, I'm still curious what people think of my suggestion of a local rule for the PGA Tour banning any clubs (except putters) that were made over 20 years ago.  I think they might have stopped making the Pings in question in 1990, if that's the case, the pros can get one more year before they are forced to use more skill and be able to rely less on their clubfaces when playing from the rough.  Even if you think the groove rule change was dumb or unnecessary, what would you think about a rule change banning older equipment (other than putters) on tour just on principle?  Would there be any active tour players even affected by such a change, other than the growing ranks of those with a new love for vintage Ping equipment?
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2010, 01:16:55 AM »
Doug, you have a valid point as to whether it might be in Ping's interest to allow its grandfathering rights with respect to the Eye 2 on the PGA Tour to dissolve.  Ping does have the power to make that agreement if they chose to do so.

But absent Ping's assent, the Tour cannot make any "local rules" about clubs based simply on the age of clubs.  Ben Crenshaw, Mark McNulty and many others will need new putters if that were a real rule.  The Tour would, in all liklihood that I am aware of, be in violation of its legal settlement agreement with Ping if that were attmpted.

I am not sure that such a "local rule" (Condition of Competition?) would pass muster with the USGA either.

What is needed is, as you originally pointed out, Ping's agreement.

Brian Walshe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2010, 03:44:54 AM »
I wonder whether the USGA spoke to Ping about the potential issue with the new groove rule and the Eye 2 settlement prior to the new rules being put into force.  They must have been aware that there was a potential problem, and I would have thought a meeting beforehand to ask for their support would have been a reasonable idea rather than have it happen via lawyers after the fact.

Seems strange that Ping would hold out on this, it achieves nothing other than bad press, unless there was another issue they are unhappy about and they are using this for leverage.  The 2024 date for the golfing masses might be the real cause of the problem.  As a Ping Eye 2 + user (I have 3 sets, 2 BeCu and one steel) I was more than a little annoyed at the thought of having to change the irons that I've used for the last 18 years, even if it's in 14 years time  ;D

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2010, 04:37:44 AM »
Doug,

Pat's right (it hurts to say that) and you're wrong.  Of course the ball makes a difference, because if it didn't go so far they wouldn't be hitting such short irons from the rough they drive into.  You can't isolate spin from distance.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2010, 06:25:44 AM »
I'm not sure I understand how Ping, and especially John Solheim come out of this as bad guys.  Ping negotiated a settlement in good faith; it was an open question as to whether or not their grooves violated at all.  I see no way that John Solheim backs down without, in effect, saying that the USGA and the Tour were right all along; I can't imagine why he would agree to that.

Now they are supposed to unilaterally get the USGA and the Tour off the hook?  I can't see it.

If protecting the "spirit of the game" is the issue, then it should be on the Tour pros to do so, not Ping.

"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Carl Rogers

Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2010, 07:11:52 AM »
I think this is the No. 1 issue of how the game lost its way....

I have attempted, with acute failure, to explain this to some my non-golfing friends.

I think the Tour(s) has make its own local rule on the subject.

Yes, I have some old Ping Eye 2's but use the new Clevelands.  I do not lose any sleep about what will happen in 2024.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2010, 11:43:37 AM »
I'm not sure I understand how Ping, and especially John Solheim come out of this as bad guys.  Ping negotiated a settlement in good faith; it was an open question as to whether or not their grooves violated at all.  I see no way that John Solheim backs down without, in effect, saying that the USGA and the Tour were right all along; I can't imagine why he would agree to that.

Now they are supposed to unilaterally get the USGA and the Tour off the hook?  I can't see it.

If protecting the "spirit of the game" is the issue, then it should be on the Tour pros to do so, not Ping.



It's really quite simple AG. It's called doing what is good for the game. How does Solheim agreeing to put aside an agreement that no longer influences their income from club sales say the USGA was right? The agreement already said the USGA was right. It implied that the USGA was the rules making body of the game, and that their rule making should be honored except when it will financially impacts a manufacturer without giving the manufacturer time to make adjustments.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Joe Bentham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2010, 12:00:31 PM »
Doug--

The PGA tour/USGA can not enact a local rule that would ban the grandfathered wedges, its part of the settlement.  Wording the local rule in a way that didn't specifically ban ping wedges would only be a thinly veiled attempt at circumventing a legal settlement. 
I also think everyone needs to keep in mind the fact that in the same settlement the USGA admitted that the wedges didn't give a player an unfair advantage, and that the wedges where only being banned because of technical issue with the gap between the grooves. 
As brighter minds have already pointed out, its really all about the ball.  And the groove deal was a way for the USGA and R&A to save some face.  When asked about what they are doing about technological advances ruining the game they can point to the banning of square grooves, even though it really doesn't do anything.  They are so afraid of the ball companies and another ping-like law suit that they won't address the real issue.  They want to be able to hold up the groove ruling as a big step towards reeling the tour pros back in, when in reality its a bandaid on a deep head wound. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2010, 12:15:06 PM »
It's the BALL, stupid, the BALL, not the grooves.

Patrick, if you are calling me stupid, then your nurse is as homely as they come, and I don't know why you haven't tried to escape the asylum yet.
 :P

Garland, my remark was directed at the USGA, but, if you think you qualify as a recipient of the moniker, I'll accept your judgement.

As to my nurse, she's great looking with a figure to match, and, she loves sex on a daily basis.
Since, I'm the only patient, I'm the recipient of her desires.
Leading me to ask you, WHY, would I want to escape ?
You must have me confused with TEPaul who's confined to "Happydale Farms", where the orderlies are real men and the sheep and TEPaul are nervous




 ;D

TEPaul

Re: PGA tour groove rules and Ping Eye2 irons
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2010, 01:01:54 PM »
ChucKB:

As with a few of your earlier posts on other threads on this recent Ping Eye 2 issue, your Post #9 on this thread is fantastic. For anyone who really wants the facts, historical and otherwise, and the evolution of this entire thing, that post of yours should be printed out for everyone to refer to for accuracy at least.

As you seem to indicate in that post it seems like the only one who just keeps on getting criticized by pretty near everyone is the USGA. I guess the moral of that story is it just ain't easy being the regulator and administrator of I&B Rules and Regs as the USGA (R&A) is and always has been.

And I should also add that if the USGA were to actually take some of the uninformed kneejerk advice of some on here and elsewhere about what they should do about all this then they probably truly would find themselves in a world of hurt and some pretty deep shit.

My sense is the PGA Tour and the USGA should probably just say: "Yes, those Ping Eye 2 wedges were grandfathered in a lawsuit settlement years ago and perhaps for all time to come and so if some tour pros want to find some on Ebay or whatever, let them use them." If they did that, I'd bet in a year or less this whole damn thing would become a forgotten issue. One thing is for certain, and that is when that suit was settled Ping could no longer produce and sell those Ping Eye 2 wedges that were grandfathered by that suit settlement.

For me, there is a certain amount of personal irony with that particular Ping Eye 2 Wedge. I used one faithfully (it was a 60 degree) and I felt like there was almost nothing I couldn't do with it around the greens. Then one day my whole bag got stolen. By that time they were hard to find and I never could get another one. After that I don't think I ever played quite so well again, at least never around the greens.