Is 14 at Pebble among the elite par-5's in the world?

[Jordan Wall]

I've always loved this hole, but its difficulty while still being fair for the pros, as shown in the final round today, really brings out a new side to it.

How many par-5's present such diversity around the green? 

I love the green because it affords good shot with a good birdie chance, and mediocre shots are penalized on par with how far off the shot was.

The tee shot can be very easy, taking it out to the left, but those who have enormous length can take a risk and cut off the corner to give it a go in two.  The best way to reach the green in two is hitting it long and down the right side, yet hitting the tee shot down the right requires lots of nerve and is very hard to pull off.

The lay up shot is also best to be put on the right side of the fairway, but the right to left slope makes it difficult and forces a precise shot.

The fronting bunker complicates things not only around the green but all the way back to the second shot.  An unsuccessful lay up into the rough will provide a very difficult third that has to carry the bunker and still hold the green.

The green is very shallow, but long shots are not punished as much as a miss short, left, or right.  In fact, if players can suck it up and take an extra club to go long, they have a pretty easy chip and putt for par.

The hole is playable for everyone yet in tournament play still sports a wonderful challenge.

The funny thing, this could be the second best par-5 on the course.  Go figure.

I know this to be a great hole, but do you guys think it merits being one of the elite par-5's in the world?

I have not played enough to say either way, so I am anxious to hear from those who have played a lot more courses.

[Wade Whitehead]

I wouldn't call it one of the elite par fives in the world, but it provided the best examples yet (Mr. Molder and Mr. Goydos) of the impact the groove change will have.

WW

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jordan,

I've always liked the hole.

It's not complicated, rather simplistic in the features presented, but, a challenge that's interesting.

I think PBGC has a nice collection of par 5's, very diverse and # 14 is certainly a very good one.

[Tim Bert]

Jordan - I'd agree it is my 2nd favorite par 5 on the course though you and I may have different #1's.

[Jordan Wall]

Tim,

The sixth is my favorite, but I believe it to be third best.  It's more of a personal favorite.  With the second as a par-4, perhaps Pebble has one of the great par-5 collaborations in the world?

Patrick,

Do you believe it merits being one of the top par-5's in the world?

You've played many courses, so what holes do you consider in that elite group?

[mike_beene]

I like it better than 18,but not than 2(which technology has sadly damaged)and 6,where the hill is much more severe than TV shows. Am I the only one that felt 14 was over the top today. There were no options but to play deep and the clowns mouth had bad breath.

[John Kirk]

#14 played far too large a role in determining the champion.  Two players on the first page of the leaderboard made 9, and were eliminated from contention.  One hole shouldn't make such a large difference.

[Tim Bert]

Jordan - the 6th is my favorite as well. I thought you were leaning toward 18, though I think you are imying that 18 is the best even if it isn't your favorite.

[Wade Whitehead]

#14 played far too large a role in determining the champion.  Two players on the first page of the leaderboard made 9, and were eliminated from contention.  One hole shouldn't make such a large difference.

John:

From left of the green, both players hit shots that went long (with Mr. Molder's actually running off the front of the green).  Both shots might have held with old grooves.  I think we saw a combination of poor decision making and failure to adapt to new equipment.

I have two questions for you:

If two players late in the day eagled a hole to jump up the leaderboard, would you say it shouldn't make such a difference?

Do you believe either of the players who made a 9 hit shots deserving of a better score?

WW

[Brock Peyer]

My Dad and I were talking this weeking about 14.  I really like the hole and I am surprised that it isn't ranked higher when considering great holes.  I really like it a lot and am a bit surprised that it isn't copied as some of the template holes are.  Are there are out there?

[Adam Clayman]

John, I don't believe the hole is to blame for those nines?

It's a hole that can eat away at your soul. Much like it probably is currently eating those two poor souls tonight.

It's an awkward (reverse camber?) hole that squeezes the sphincter on almost every shot. Especially the second shot. Trying to get too cute around that green is what causes the high scores. (And OB right.)

The prudent play is to be happy with having your ball on the green in reg. Even if it's on the far right side with a left pin. The putt is not as difficult as it may look to the uninitiated.  

[Tim Bert]

Goydos was in position after three to walk away from the hole with a "safe" 6 and possibly a 5 with a really good putt IF he had chosen to bail and hit a chip to the top half of the green away from the hole. That would have left him in contention with a reasonable shot to win.

Instead he chose an extremely aggressive play with 0 margin for error an he did not execute perfectly.  He had to know that the slightest miss there put him in a dreadful position that was not going to result in a casual up and down.
  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Do you believe it merits being one of the top par-5's in the world?

You've played many courses, so what holes do you consider in that elite group?

Jordan,

I generally assess par 5's as a group on a golf course, and I differentiate those courses with two versus four par 5's.

As a group, I think PBGC are world class.

I think Ridgewood in NJ also has a fantastic grouping.

Many have stated that par 5's are amongst the most difficult holes to design, so a set of four good ones has to be given great acclaim and I think PBGC's set are in elite company.

[Michael Huber]

Obviously the hole had quite a bit impact on the final round, but there are enough ways to play the hole that you can prevent a total disaster.

When I think of a hole that probably is overly and unnecessarily dangerous, I think #17 at sawgrass.

Does anyone have a scoring average for the 14th for this years tournament?  

Edit:  For the record, I made about a 25 foot uphill put for par on the 14th, so it cant be all that hard 

[Ron Csigo]

It is a wonderful three shot par-5.  This hole should be quite interesting to watch during the US Open.  What are the four possible pin locations on that green for the US Open?  Are there four pinable hole locations other than back left and front right?

[Adam Clayman]

Ron, There's the front left pin just over the bunker. There is a down slope coming off the backside of the bunker, so it really is a most difficult spot. A Sunday u.s. open pin if ever there was one.

[Ron Csigo]

Thanks Adam.  I was thinking that was a probable hole location for the US Open.  There will be some diabolical holes locations on that green especially when the USGA gets the green speeds up to 13-14 on the Stimp.

[Tim Gavrich]

I love the green because it affords good shot with a good birdie chance, and mediocre shots are penalized on par with how far off the shot was.

Jordan--

I would not say that's true.  Relative to the pin we saw today, a ball that lands ten feet left and a ball that lands ten yards left will end up in the same place.  Likewise, a ball that lands twenty feet right and a ball that lands forty feet right and twenty feet short will end up in the same place.

I'd love to see where the original green edges were.  The effective size of that green may well be under 1000 SF.

[Adrian_Stiff]

This hole does not make the top 3 in "the best par 5's at Pebble beach"...IMO.

What it does show is the diversity of how we love our golf holes.

[Carl Rogers]

For tour pros, the severity of the green complex and green speed is fine.

At 'tournament' green speeds, for the rest of us, it is slow play torture.

How many of you out their can compare the playing characteristics of the green from high green speed day to 'average' green speed day?

[Tim Bert]

Jordan

If you take #2 as a par 4, which it never would be in my world, then that's a mighty fine set of par 5s with the remaining three. To be fair I don't think that #2 is as bad as some though I wouldn't call it world class. Sand Hills quickly comes to mind as a course with 3 better par 5s. I'm sure there are a few others, but to me the par 5s at Sand Hills are the strong suit of an all-world course.  The best set I have ever played.  I would put the set at Pebble a half-notch or full-notch below, whatever that means!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Thanks Adam.  I was thinking that was a probable hole location for the US Open.  There will be some diabolical holes locations on that green especially when the USGA gets the green speeds up to 13-14 on the Stimp.

When has the USGA ever gotten green speeds up to 13-14 for a U.S. Open ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jordan

If you take #2 as a par 4, which it never would be in my world, then that's a mighty fine set of par 5s with the remaining three. To be fair I don't think that #2 is as bad as some though I wouldn't call it world class. Sand Hills quickly comes to mind as a course with 3 better par 5s. I'm sure there are a few others, but to me the par 5s at Sand Hills are the strong suit of an all-world course. 
The best set I have ever played.  I would put the set at Pebble a half-notch or full-notch below, whatever that means!

Tim,

What tees did you play on # 2 ?

Sand Hills par 5's better than PBGC ?  ?  ?   Do you feel that # 1 and # 14 are world class par 5's ?   Or should they be 4's ?

Have you played PBGC ?
If yes, from what tees ?
Tees selection might alter one's views on how a hole plays.

[Ron Csigo]

Thanks Adam.  I was thinking that was a probable hole location for the US Open.  There will be some diabolical holes locations on that green especially when the USGA gets the green speeds up to 13-14 on the Stimp.

When has the USGA ever gotten green speeds up to 13-14 for a U.S. Open ?

Pat,

At the 2002 U.S. Open, the relatively flat greens at Bethpage Black allowed Tim Moraghan, the USGA’s former director of championship agronomy, and his staff to shave the grass as closely as possible. By Sunday afternoon, unofficial Stimpmeter readings were approaching 15.

[JC Jones]

Thanks Adam.  I was thinking that was a probable hole location for the US Open.  There will be some diabolical holes locations on that green especially when the USGA gets the green speeds up to 13-14 on the Stimp.

When has the USGA ever gotten green speeds up to 13-14 for a U.S. Open ?

Pat,

At the 2002 U.S. Open, the relatively flat greens at Bethpage Black allowed Tim Moraghan, the USGA’s former director of championship agronomy, and his staff to shave the grass as closely as possible. By Sunday afternoon, unofficial Stimpmeter readings were approaching 15.

Prepare for Muccification.