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Tim Gavrich

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#14 at Pebble Beach
« on: February 14, 2010, 05:07:07 PM »
I'm all for the concept of a tough-par par 5, but the 14th at Pebble Beach is looking like a travesty right now.  When the announcers are talking about players having to hit "a career shot" in order to get it within 10 feet of the hole, there's something very wrong going on.

Thoughts?
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Mac Plumart

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Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2010, 05:09:07 PM »
It looks totally fun to me. 

It seems you have to hit a string of good shots to make par OR a few ok shots and one miraculous one.

I like it.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom Birkert

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Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2010, 05:12:43 PM »
The same argument could be made about being just short of the Road Hole bunker at The Old Course...

You just can't miss where they did on that hole. Goydos could have taken his medicine but tried the hero shot, Molder tried the conservative option but executed it poorly.

As an aside, this hacker managed to birdie the hole from the back tees with the pin in the same position. So it can be done  ;)

Mac Plumart

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Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2010, 05:16:58 PM »
I totally agree.

For instance, Goydos hit a 247 yard drive in the fairway.  Frankly, I can do that and I am not that good of a golfer.  So that is not a PGA Tour quality shot.

Then he pulls a 3 wood (I think it was).  And ends up in the rough.  Two non-PGA Tour quality shots.

Then he misses the green short.  3 non-PGA Tour quality shots.

If you do that, you've got to work some short game magic and he just missed his first shot and then hit another poor shot.

So...laying 5 with 4 non-PGA Tour quality shots.  As much as I like Goydos, he deserved a nine and oh yeah, he left an 8 foot putt short.  That was not due to poor hole design.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jeff Tang

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Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2010, 05:21:11 PM »
I have always liked the 14th. You just can't get it out of position. If you do you pay the price.

I think the 3rd into that hole is really difficult, it plays very long being how uphill it is and is a tough shot even with just a wedge or 9 iron in.

So bad it's good!

Alex Miller

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Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2010, 05:41:35 PM »
Nothing wrong with a hard par 5.


It is too bad that the right side of the green has been tapered off so there are no more pinnable spots over there.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2010, 06:33:03 PM »
Tim,

Don't believe everything the announcers say, they're there to promote and glamourize as well as announce.

It's a wonderful hole.

You can't demote a hole because some golfers make bogey or worse.

Sean Leary

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Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2010, 06:56:47 PM »
I got to play the hole once with a front right hole location. Interesting to say the least.

Is this the first time they have shaved down the left side of the green? I don't remember seeing that before. Three 9's in about an hour. Don't see that often with Tour guys..

Adam Clayman

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Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2010, 07:00:22 PM »
The hole can be so taxing it justified the relative ease the drive on 15 is suppose to be and use to be before the hideous Shivas bunkers.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tim Bert

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Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2010, 07:10:44 PM »
Probably my favorite inland hole on the course. Challenging, touchy, but not over the top. If those were playing carefully for par it could be had. Nothing wrong with a par 5 where birdie isn't a given.

Anthony Gray

Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2010, 07:17:19 PM »


 I believe it is the number one handicap or was. Great point by Adam about its position on the course. Never saw it that way before but he is correct. I wonder if that was a thought of the designers.

  Anthony


Philippe Binette

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Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2010, 07:22:57 PM »
I think Goydos made a mistake by always playing for the hole from nearly impossible spots.

first chip, play 20 feet right, use whatever length of the green you have.

chip from the swale left of the green: chip toward the rough in between the green and the bunker. you're better in the bunker than on the right of the green.

Eric_Terhorst

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Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2010, 07:29:50 PM »
I think the 14th hole is a terrific golf hole and one the Pebble-haters around here seem to forget when they disparage the "inland holes."

Watching those two 9s in the last two groups was really entertaining.  I don't think asking these guys to hit a great wedge to get within ten feet is wrong at all.  The bomber Johnson chose to lay up, then hit a good wedge (not to within 10 feet), then lagged to a 5.  He won.   He might have gone for it in two and lost.  

Watching the two 9s in the last two groups was not only entertaining, it proves the worthiness of giving players "options." We watched Bryce Molder make a mess of it with a putter in his hands from the short grass front left, and then Paul Goydos gum it up with a lob wedge from the same place.  Every guy who plays it in the US Open will now be thinking "Better to be long than short."  What will happen then??

Tim Gavrich--please don't tell us you think the hole is "unfair."  

Wade Whitehead

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Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2010, 07:38:06 PM »
A good player I know says he likes par threes best because he only has to hit one good shot to make a birdie or par.

On the 14th at Pebble, it takes three good shots.  It's exactly what my friend is talking about.

WW

Scott Coan

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Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2010, 07:53:59 PM »
I'm all for the concept of a tough-par par 5, but the 14th at Pebble Beach is looking like a travesty right now.  When the announcers are talking about players having to hit "a career shot" in order to get it within 10 feet of the hole, there's something very wrong going on.

Thoughts?

I totally disagree, I thought it was awesome.  To see 2 PGA Tour pros in the final groups on a Sunday make back-to-back 9's was absolutely incredible.  Goydos and Johnson were standing back in the fairway talking about what Molder had just gone through and then Goydos hits it right to the very spot he did not want to go!  Talk about planting a negative seed - Faldo's commentary was spot on when he talked about how he should have been off by himself reinforcing the positive shot he wanted to make instead of lollygagging with his COMPETITOR about what he did not want to do.

Once Goydos was in jail he took the OPTION of having to hit the career shot while holding a 1-shot lead with 5 holes to go.  Faldo, the ultimate grinder, thought it was a fatal mistake and it was there for all of us to see.  Nobody was forcing him to go for par once he was in jail.  The ultimate and prime example of not taking his medicine and playing for the sure 6 or 7.

Mac Plumart

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Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2010, 08:04:16 PM »
As I read these posts and think about what I saw at the tournament, I can only conclude what a truly wonderful golf course Pebble Beach is...and I can not wait to play it.

Was 14 ever  mentioned in GCA Fantasy drafts?  As Eric points out, do people who think Pebble is over-rated talk about 14 when they talk about the inland holes.  Wade touches on a good point..a par 5 on a PGA course that requires the pros to hit 3 solid shots to be in position to make a "good" score.  Adam makes a great point about the pace of the holes (or the routing).  Franky, a lot of great points made about a hole that not a lot of people talk about when the talk about Pebble.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

David Kelly

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Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2010, 08:20:14 PM »
I'm all for the concept of a tough-par par 5, but the 14th at Pebble Beach is looking like a travesty right now.  When the announcers are talking about players having to hit "a career shot" in order to get it within 10 feet of the hole, there's something very wrong going on.

Thoughts?

So what is it that was "very wrong going on?"
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Anthony Gray

Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2010, 08:24:38 PM »
As I read these posts and think about what I saw at the tournament, I can only conclude what a truly wonderful golf course Pebble Beach is...and I can not wait to play it.

Was 14 ever  mentioned in GCA Fantasy drafts?  As Eric points out, do people who think Pebble is over-rated talk about 14 when they talk about the inland holes.  Wade touches on a good point..a par 5 on a PGA course that requires the pros to hit 3 solid shots to be in position to make a "good" score.  Adam makes a great point about the pace of the holes (or the routing).  Franky, a lot of great points made about a hole that not a lot of people talk about when the talk about Pebble.



  I has some of the best views on the course. I once saw a whale with its calf while walkig off the tee.  the view from the green magnifies the quality of the land 6 and 8 are on. OB right and the trees really squeeze the secound shot and make it a mental challenging shot.

  Anthony


Tim Bert

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Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2010, 08:32:30 PM »
Eric/Mac -

I don't think there are as many Pebble "haters" around here as some think. There are a good number of guys that wouldn't put Prbble in their world or US top ten but that doesn't make them hatred. Things tend to get skewed on some of those threads because comparisons are only being made to the very few greatest courses in the world.

I also think very few people would argue that every inland hole is weak. Usually what is stated is something along the lines of the inland holes as a group are only average or pick your other tag line. While I don't agree they are average they are definitely a big drop-off in my opinion. But that is as a complete set. I think both 14 and 16 are very, very good and would have considered either in our fantasy draft.
 

Wade Whitehead

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Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2010, 08:42:17 PM »
It's important to remember that conditions on 14 (and the rest of the golf course) were benign compared to what they'll be in June.

What will 14 be like with a faster (and possibly narrower) fairway and a quicker green?

Faldo hit the nail on the head when he suggested that Mr. Goydos should have taken his medicine.  He needed a career shot, yes, but only because of his own decisions and/or mistakes.

WW

Bob_Huntley

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Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2010, 08:43:24 PM »
How anyone can disparage the 14th hole is quite beyond me.

I have been playing Pebble for over forty years and can count the fingers on one hand when the pin has been front right. Leaving your third short by a hundred yards of the green is the best way to play the hole. Unfortunately, these day I cannot get within a hundred yards.

Like a previous poster mentioned, there is much denigration of the inland holes but today showed that the 14th, whether in an ordinary tournament like the A.T. & T. or the U.S Open, it can rip your heart out. I know because some of my offal still surrounds the green.


Bob

Jed Rammell

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Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2010, 10:15:20 PM »
How anyone can disparage the 14th hole is quite beyond me.

I have been playing Pebble for over forty years and can count the fingers on one hand when the pin has been front right. Leaving your third short by a hundred yards of the green is the best way to play the hole. Unfortunately, these day I cannot get within a hundred yards.

Like a previous poster mentioned, there is much denigration of the inland holes but today showed that the 14th, whether in an ordinary tournament like the A.T. & T. or the U.S Open, it can rip your heart out. I know because some of my offal still surrounds the green.


Bob

The coverage of the 14th was the highlight of the tourney for me - it made up for the lack of coverage on the Shore Course. Dustin Johnson played the whole perfectly, and deserved to win. Bob, I've never played the hole; is the Dustin Johnson line the best way to approach the green given a front left pin?

Bob_Huntley

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Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2010, 10:36:01 PM »
Jed,

I missed his choice of approach. Do tell, what did he do?

Bob

Jed Rammell

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Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2010, 10:37:28 PM »
He hit the ball about 25 feet past the hole, maybe 5 feet right of the hole. The lag putt seemed quick, but not impossible.

Tim Gavrich

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Re: #14 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2010, 02:03:46 AM »
Very interesting replies.  I don't mean to come off as a Pebble Beach-hater; quite the opposite, in fact.  In years past I have always looked forward to watching this tournament on TV so that I can see all the great holes that Pebble has--not just the ones on the ocean, but holes like 14 and 16.  In the past, I have enjoyed watching #14 for the very reason that it is a tough par, rather than a legitimate birdie chance.  It has always played that way, as far as I can recall from watching the tournament.  But alarm bells start to go off in my head when three pros make a quad on the hole in the space of a half dozen or so groups.  The contributing factor among all three of those blowups seems to be the shaved-down area to the left of that green. 

I think collection areas are great--that's why the Masters is so much fun to watch.  When players end up in short grass ten, twenty, thirty yards away from the pin and have three or four different ways to play a shot, that's golf theatre at its best.  Such was not the case with this particular chipping area, which fed every ball into shade-covered, damp rough.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that collection areas that feed balls into long grass in that sort of way are not favored.

Also, I do not believe it was as simple for Goydos or Molder to play it safe from short and right as some seem to be arguing here.  Wasn't there the same problem--a dropoff to a chipping area--over the back of the green as the left?  Faldo and Nantz seemed to think that no matter where he aimed, Goydos had no shot to get the ball anywhere in the neighborhood of the hole.  And since that right-hand slope in the green seemed to funnel balls into the same place, I'm sure there were footprints and divots galore down there.

Is this the first year that left side was shaved down?  If they leave it for the US Open and they put the pin where it was today, the USGA runs the risk of a situation like they had at Shinnecock in 2004 if things firm up.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

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