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Tom_Doak

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Re: Question for historians and architectural gurus
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2010, 11:43:12 AM »
Well, now that we are getting into this thread subject of questions for historians and architectural gurus about the appropriateness of restoration or improvement or whatever of the courses of the ODGs, I guess it would also be appropriate to ask the flip-side of the question or subject, perhaps from the perspective of some clubs, which would appear to be-----to what extent is GOLFCLUBATLAS.com and its core contributors full of shit on this important and burning question and subject?   ;)

Tom:

Plenty of people think we are all full of shit -- most of all, a few people who have invested an enormous amount of their own time and ego spearheading an overhaul of their home course.  Whether the work is good or awful, they could never admit that it isn't perfect, and if it were all perfect, there wouldn't be much to say about it here.

Besides, as we prove on a regular basis here, even history is a matter of opinion.  And golf course design is certainly a matter of opinion.

JESII

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Re: Question for historians and architectural gurus
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2010, 11:52:10 AM »
Nope, you're on target, and I don't know him at all...maybe caddied for him once or twice 15 years ago at Pine Valley.

I had a conversation with Tom P last night on this exact topic and argued that you and C&C approached a restoration/renovation with the same mindset as Fazio regarding modern equipment...in the construction phase you used technology and equipment that was not available 80 years ago and used your best judgement in building something sustainable considering modern maintenance practices and playing technology. The commitment to the original course would vary by project for sure, but rarely, if ever, would an exact replica be the goal. That's what I mean by "thought process".

What is actually created is the reflection of each of your overriding principles and clearly Fazio is less concerned about concealing his work as you and Bill Coore (and plenty of others) are...but that wasn't my point, we hear all the time about the differences and what a horror Tom Fazio is because he says the old guys would be using the same technology if they were around today. I think he must be right about that.


Mike_Young

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Re: Question for historians and architectural gurus
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2010, 11:53:38 AM »
Well, now that we are getting into this thread subject of questions for historians and architectural gurus about the appropriateness of restoration or improvement or whatever of the courses of the ODGs, I guess it would also be appropriate to ask the flip-side of the question or subject, perhaps from the perspective of some clubs, which would appear to be-----to what extent is GOLFCLUBATLAS.com and its core contributors full of shit on this important and burning question and subject?   ;)

Tom,
99 percent of the golfers don't know it exist.....and of the ones that do..most will not read it or could care less when they do....most golfers really have no idea what a golf architect does ....and they only know a few architects....if members of my club needed the services of an architect and you had Phil Mickelson, Payton Manning, Tom Fazio and myself in the room....they would listen to Phil then Payton then TF then myself....so yep...were are full of it... ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

SL_Solow

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Re: Question for historians and architectural gurus
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2010, 11:56:24 AM »
Mac,  From my perspective the basic problem with your inquiry is you start by advancing a premise from Fazio's book without any context or comparison.  It is a "lazy" question.  Fazio is very successful and a talented mover of earth but reading his book it becomes clear that he doesn't think very hard about the actual playing of the game.  if you want to evaluate his theories you must compare him to the classic architects who wrote extensively such as Thomas, Mackenzie, Behr, Colt, Hunter, Simpson &Wethered, Tillinghast,Flynn and Ross.  Then add moderns like Doak, Hanse etc. Consider critics like Darwin,Klein, Whitten Shackelford Rubenstein and Wind. Decide what makes sense to you.  Then see what you can to determine whether the theory reflects reality.  At that point your questions will be more focused and the answers will be more direct. But it takes a fair amount of work which I believe you are willing to do.






Mac Plumart

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Re: Question for historians and architectural gurus
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2010, 11:58:45 AM »
Mike Young...that is very funny!!!!  And I think you are correct, I could put together a marketing team and sell the heck out of a Peyton Manning course!!!!


Jim S...I have to believe that there is NO DOUBT that the ODG's would have used modern equipment to build golf courses today.  But I think the major difference in Fazio's philosophy is the "Using Terrain vs. Creating It".  He says in this book I am reading that he would build a flat course in mountainous terrain and a hilly course that has naturally flat terrain.  That is what strikes me as being 100% opposite in terms of thought process.  The idea that I have gathered in my brief exposure to golf course design is that you want to have a natural appearing course that blends/melds into the pre-existing terrain.    At least that is my take...and take it for what it is worth...which might not be too much!

Sheldon...great point!  And that is precisely what I am doing.  However, what I really enjoying doing is reading a section of a book, stop think about it, derive questions, post them on here to gather further input, think about that an read on.  I've done it with a variety of book thus far and it really helps me learn in a more dynamic fashion particularly in areas where potential disagreement can occur.  I first did it with Hunter's book and his comments on the Old Course and it was great.  In this instance, I have learned a great deal more than simply reading Fazio's word and thinking about what I've read about Mackenzie, Behr, Ross, Doak, etc.  Again, great point!!
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 12:04:37 PM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Question for historians and architectural gurus
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2010, 12:01:47 PM »
My apologies if I offended anyone.

Thanks.

EDIT...names and courses removed from a previous post. 
[/quote]


Mac:

Didn't mean to slap you down.  I just thought you were lumping together some very different animals, and I didn't want to see you start a fight.

For example, there are some really terrific club historians in each of the ODG Societies ... but for each one of them, there are five guys who are networking to gain access to other Ross/Tillinghast/MacKenzie courses, or who have joined to improve their credentials as an "expert" so they can tell other people at their own clubs what to do.

And there are many architects [and a few consultants and historians] who started off in this work because they were really passionate about it, but who now make a good living at it, and are dependent enough on that for it to cloud their judgment of what to recommend.

My observation is that, in general, the best works of most architects have been messed around with in order to keep them relevant for tournaments, while their second-tier courses are the ones which are going through elaborate restorations so they can sell their authenticity.  And now that we've run out of second-tier courses, there are guys whose only business is to go around to the third-tier courses and tell them if they did a restoration, they would be just as good as those second-tier courses.

I think it all goes back to the rankings.  There are 400 courses which honestly think they ought to be in the top 100, and many of them will happily spend their fellow members' money fruitlessly chasing that goal.  Without that high bar to jump at, most of these clubs would be quite content with their courses and would just go back to planting trees in all the wrong places.

Mike Cirba

Re: Question for historians and architectural gurus
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2010, 12:02:59 PM »
What a great name...wish I could go out today and build a new course called Oak Monk.

Certainly creates an interesting visual.

I think the bottom line to this discussion is that certain architects try very hard to "preserve" what is already there during any type of invasive work and others like Tom Fazio don't think that's worth the effort, and it shows in both cases.

Simple enough, and I guess it depends on what a club is looking for because they'll likely get it depending on where any particular "restoration" (which is a term that has been used to cover such a variety of revisonist work to now be essentially meaningless) architect falls philosophically on this gradient.

Of course, that statement also assumes all things being equal in terms of skill level and functional ability, which is also not always the case, but among the best of each genre, you get what you get.

The one mystery to me on this gradient is where Rees Jones falls.   It seems to me that no matter his publicly stated intent, at the end of the day it still looks like a Rees Jones course so he's either a master or incompetent, depending on what he's really going for.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 12:06:50 PM by Mike Cirba »

Mac Plumart

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Re: Question for historians and architectural gurus
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2010, 12:09:33 PM »
Tom D...no worries about "slapping me down".  With what I've been through in my life, things like what you did don't bother me at all.  You were respectful in your point and offered to add value...I have no issues whatsoever with what you did/said and I actually thank you for the input.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Question for historians and architectural gurus
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2010, 12:12:58 PM »
Nope, you're on target, and I don't know him at all...maybe caddied for him once or twice 15 years ago at Pine Valley.

I had a conversation with Tom P last night on this exact topic and argued that you and C&C approached a restoration/renovation with the same mindset as Fazio regarding modern equipment...in the construction phase you used technology and equipment that was not available 80 years ago and used your best judgement in building something sustainable considering modern maintenance practices and playing technology. The commitment to the original course would vary by project for sure, but rarely, if ever, would an exact replica be the goal. That's what I mean by "thought process".

What is actually created is the reflection of each of your overriding principles and clearly Fazio is less concerned about concealing his work as you and Bill Coore (and plenty of others) are...but that wasn't my point, we hear all the time about the differences and what a horror Tom Fazio is because he says the old guys would be using the same technology if they were around today. I think he must be right about that.



Jim:

I don't really think Fazio has been excoriated because he says the old guys would be using technology if they were around today.  Architects like MacKenzie and Thomas were excited about using new technology in construction as it became available, and there's no reason to think they would not have continued that to this day.  Heck, if they were around today, they might even be as caught up in making courses more difficult as Tom Fazio and Pete Dye and Rees Jones are.  

But, unlike some other architects, I wouldn't profess to know that.  I just do what I can to respect the work those old guys actually DID, and the difference is that I think the most important part to respect is what they actually built on the ground, instead of respecting some concept of "shot values" which entitles you to rebuild the whole golf course if you want to, because your crystal ball says that's what George Thomas really would have done if he'd seen a Pro V1.

I do think Tom Fazio is one of those guys who take the "best available technology" too far.  If he were a general, I don't think he would have any hesitation in using an A-bomb.  Not every architect would be in THAT camp.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Question for historians and architectural gurus
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2010, 05:34:08 PM »

Are these systemic changes ?  Or, are they limited to courses holding major championships ?

If a trend occurs at major venues, but, nowhere else, is it a general trend in the golf world, or an anomaly confined to the PGA Tour ?

Nowhere else???

In the last twenty years, I'd guess that the top 100 courses in the USA have spent $150 million on changes proposed by golf course architects, whether they are aimed at "updating" or "restoration".

Aren't those courses the same ones that host championships ?
 


The publicity that Augusta and some U.S. Open courses have generated for their changes has led hundreds of other clubs to follow suit, because their members think if the USGA has suggested it, it must be necessary.

Why would the USGA suggest architectural changes if the course wasn't hosting a championship ?

The Metro NY area has an awful lot of clubs that haven't made architectural changes, at the USGA's or anyone elses suggestion.

If anything, other than lengthening, many, if not most of the courses in this area are more focused on restoration rather than alteration.

I'm curious as to the names of these hundreds of clubs that aren't involved in championships that are making changes at the USGA's request


john_stiles

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Re: Question for historians and architectural gurus
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2010, 05:46:13 PM »

The quote at the beginning of the thread and especially the last sentence seems to be pretty much be 'white card' approach.




Mike_Young

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Re: Question for historians and architectural gurus
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2010, 06:03:28 PM »
Pat,
I don't think he meant "at the USGA request" on an individual basis.  I think it says:  "because their members think if the USGA has suggested it, it must be necessary." 
I interpret that to mean after a club committee either reads of USGA suggestions or hears such from a USGA rep...for example a USGA rep informed a club of which I am a member "if you plant grass on the presnt 85 year old greens it would be like putting new carpet on a rotten floor"......therefore I take that type of thing as a USGA suggestion....or when they tell a club that pin positions should be around 1 to 2 percent and nothing more etc....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Question for historians and architectural gurus
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2010, 08:09:16 PM »
Patrick:

What I meant was that because the USGA suggests changes at Winged Foot, other clubs not hosting championships think they have to soften the contours in their greens, too.  [For example, I've softened a couple of greens at SFGC and The Valley Club, neither of which have any interest in hosting a championship.]  And if the USGA lengthens Winged Foot, then Quaker Ridge and Metropolis and Sunningdale think their course must need to be lengthened to keep up.

How many prominent clubs in the New York area can you think of that have NOT made any architectural changes over the past 20 years?  The only one I can name off the top of my head is Maidstone.

The Green Section guys rarely make direct architectural suggestions anymore.  They know we've still got that letter in the files from Bill Bengeyfield in 1970 telling Riviera they should blow up the tenth hole because it was outdated, and they don't want to look that silly.

john_stiles

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Re: Question for historians and architectural gurus
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2010, 11:03:52 PM »

Representatives for senior PGA tourney visited a course.   Upon first visit, first walk around, said you need a new tee here, here, and here on a 6950 yard course.     Actually it was  5 tees,  not three.    Course was visited a second time by the 'course' person, and once several reps on the 'tourney logistics/operations' side,  and seemingly in the running.  Then this tourney started going to more glamorous venues, and actually probably better venues for a big tourney such as this one, and this course eased out of any consideration.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Question for historians and architectural gurus
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2010, 01:37:29 PM »
Tom Doak & Mike Young,

I don't think you can blame the USGA, in the absolute, for copycat architectural changes made by local clubs.

I know they're an easy target and are often the genesis for alterations to venues hosting majors.

It's hard to quantify the infuence created by the USGA when changes are made to the venues hosting majors, but, it's the green committees and Boards that have to make architectural changes an agenda item, then vote them through and fund them.

TV would seem to be the medium that presents and announces these changes to the majority of golfers.

I blame the local clubs more than the USGA.

The idea or concept of altering a golf course is predominantly internal.
Architects don't randomly drive in through the gates and demand to meet with the President, Board and Green Committee.
They're invited in because the club has ALREADY formulated an agenda and is seeking their talent to wield the architectural scalpel.

If there was no USGA, clubs would still embark upon the same endeavor in an attempt to either keep up with the Jones's or keep ahead of the Jones's.

Golf coruses are a bit like hospitals in that they have to have the latest and best equipment, irrespective of the demand or need for that equipment.  That air of competition amongst clubs is often the fuel for alterations.

In defense of clubs that make targeted changes, ie distance, "elasticity" has always been a critical, original design element.
It's certainly not the local clubs fault that some of their holes and features have been made obsolete due to hi-tech advances.
Obsolescence that can be reversed by added distance.

Exhibit "A" in my argument would be the 8th hole at NGLA.
The centerline bunker feature is a vital element in the design and play of the hole.
Hi-tech rendered that feature akin to the Maginot Line.
Golfers no longer had to interface with it, as was intended.  Instead they could easily avoid it.
The ONLY solution with respect to restoring the original architectural intent of that feature was to lengthen the hole.

I myself was guilty of trying to obsolete a feature that drove me nuts (a love/hate relationship) when I acquired my Biggest Big Bertha.  My first words were, now I can blow it over the centerline bunkers on # 8.
I applauded the additional lengthening of that hole because it brought those wonderful bunkers back into play for me and others.

I am critical of the USGA for letting the distance issue get out of hand so quickly.

I still hope that ANGC will introduce a competition ball for the Masters, a ball that would be adopted for all competitions.

When High School and College kids bomb it past Nicklaus in his prime, there's something rotten in Denmark and in Far Hills.
 
There's no denying the impact of hi-tech on many wonderful older courses.

As to softening putting surfaces, Mike Rewinski posted "The need for Speed" a thread critical of clubs racing to increase speeds at any cost. 

It's the local clubs that bear the ultimate responsibilty for disfiguring their golf course.

TEPaul, our resident idiot-savant, suggested that clubs test the appropriate stimp speed on their most difficult green and apply that speed to the balance of their greens.  I like that idea, it makes sense and would avoid disfiguring many wonderful putting surfaces.

So while I understand your position that the USGA is the root of all disfigurations, I blame the local clubs for any and all architectural alterations, especially those that disfigure the architecture.

I saw one of the best holes on a golf course, a hole remembered by all that played it, disfigured for all the wrong reasons, and who was to blame ?  Not the architect who merely carried out the club's wishes, but, those in power who didn't understand architectural values, who contexted the hole within the framework of their games.  Sometimes power and ego at local clubs trumps common sense and sound architectural values.

End of rant ;D 




Ian Andrew

Re: Question for historians and architectural gurus
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2010, 02:03:52 PM »
I don't think you can blame the USGA, in the absolute, for copycat architectural changes made by local clubs.

You can if they recommend the same two firms everywhere they go when a club looks to hold an event.
We're talking even at the small regional events.
I'm barely working in the US and I've seen it twice first hand.

TEPaul

Re: Question for historians and architectural gurus
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2010, 02:15:24 PM »
Patrick:

My suggestion (and it's not the first time;) ) to your post #39 and your self-admitted rant which seems to happen on here pretty much on about a monthy schedule, is that one day you get used to the idea of not always trying to blame someone for something. You know as well as I do, things, perspectives, attitudes, opinions et al simply change over time for all kinds of interesting reasons. Forget about blaming the past, if you think the present and hopefully the future direction of it holds some benefical ideas then just embrace them without first blaming people from the past who didn't live in our times with our perspectives, attitudes and opinions et al.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 02:17:01 PM by TEPaul »

Ian Andrew

Re: Question for historians and architectural gurus
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2010, 02:18:01 PM »
Funny story - actually it's not funny the more I think about it.

A club I work with, looking at hosting a Senior Tour Event, was told by a staff member reviewing the course that it needs 200 yards longer. The committee was surprised that they would want to play at 7,100 yards. The person told them that the card length should be longer to give the event more prestige and that they would actually play all the tees inside that length.

While on a planned visit I was asked by the club to see if I could possibly find 200 yards.  I did but wondered why this was suddenly important since I had the same basic committee for 10 years and that was never an issue before. They explained the Tour’s desire to have a longer venue even though they would not use the back tees.

I suggested since the tour was willing to fabricate a lie, why wouldn’t the club follow suit and simply change the card to tally to 7,100 yards. This would save them around $100,000. They will not be holding the event and I won’t be wasting their money.

If any of you ever wonder why we architects get frustrated dealing with the representatives from organizations, it’s the wastefulness of their suggestions that drive us nuts.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Question for historians and architectural gurus
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2010, 02:20:29 PM »
Pat,
In response to your rant ;D

I agree that it is the clubs that are responsible for the actual pulling of the trigger.  But I mention USGA merely because the mention of those 4 letters carries so much weight with committees and members that know nothing about a particular subject relating to their golf course.  And if the USGA rep or a USGA committee says something to many clubs that is the final answer.  
As you have said before...you never see statues built of committees.  Therefore when people are placed on a committee they want to be sure that when they are finished they can still play at the club and that any issues cannot be blamed on them.  so they are always looking for a way out in case there is an issue.  If the USGA rep says it is ok to reduce the slope n a green because speed has outdated such then fine..write me a report and we place it in a file and future committees can always refer back to said file with no blame on the individuals.....

As you say..it is not fair to blame all on the USGA and I don't but so often I have seen the way in which the USGA green section has been manipulated and does manipulate at clubs.  Going back to my past mention...most committees and supts ask for the yearly visit just to cover their butts in the file.  My mind cannot be changed on that subject....have seen it for years.  For example....knowing that the USGA reps have a quota of visits to fulfill in a given year; they wish to make sure they receive a return visit the next year.  Well...what is the best way to do such?  They give the club or the supt what they want.  If the supt has been hiring you..and he wants new lightweight fairway units...you easily write the report to justify such....if he says he doesn't want the new ultradwarf grasses then you do all in your power to show the club how they can never obtain enough sunlight for such...and the list goes on....AND THEN  one year the green chair calls the USGA rep regarding the annual visit and says they plan to replace the supt....now this puts the rep in a position whereby he wants to continue helping the old supt wherever he goes or he makes a statement for the club explaining how agronomic issues needed to be changed and it was time for a replacement....all of it pure politics with true statements that could be used to justify any situation that was needed.  All of this is what I mean when I say the USGA influences the clubs....
 
We both know our best clubs are dictatorships and you are fortunate to be involved with some of those....but where I sit...I have seen a lot of committees that are there mainly for the free lunch or dinner and will do whatever the one guy leader(and there is always one) wants as long as they cannot tbe blamed down the road.....and The USGA does a fantastic job of fulfilling that requirement....they have a great magazine...capable reps but so often they  should give examples and not opinions.  I remember years ago reading a report where one rep told a club they needed to mow a green with a Toro mower instead of a Jake...they had no business making such a statement...and recently you see such more and more....

Use private consultants ....
OH Well....JMO ;)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 02:26:00 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Question for historians and architectural gurus
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2010, 10:42:31 PM »
Patrick:

My suggestion (and it's not the first time;) ) to your post #39 and your self-admitted rant which seems to happen on here pretty much on about a monthy schedule, is that one day you get used to the idea of not always trying to blame someone for something.
You know as well as I do, things, perspectives, attitudes, opinions et al simply change over time for all kinds of interesting reasons. Forget about blaming the past, if you think the present and hopefully the future direction of it holds some benefical ideas then just embrace them without first blaming people from the past who didn't live in our times with our perspectives, attitudes and opinions et al.


TEPaul,

This concept may be alien to you, but, it's called accountability.

When individuals are allowed to function without being accountable, bad things happen, in golf, business, governance, politics and life.

If a group in power disfigures a golf course and are not held accountable, it opens up Pandora's box and allows every subsequent group in power to continue to disfigure the golf course until its distinctive character is eradicated.

That's why you, Wayno and others are called in to help with restorations, to rectify the mistakes of others.

You're content to let those mistakes reoccur, over and over and over again.

I'm not, and therefore feel that those responsible for careless and reckless acts should be brought to task.
They should have the light of scrutiny shown brightly upon their decisions and deeds in the hope that it will prevent further and future disfigurations and misdeeds, in golf, business, governance, politics and life.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Question for historians and architectural gurus
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2010, 10:48:53 PM »
Mike,

For 40+ years I've seen what you describe.

"The letter of reinforcement or confirmation", but, usually, the genesis for the work isn't the USGA, they're just the endorsers in particular instances.  The real culprit is the "leader" or committee and/or board.

When I was the project chairman for a rather substantial project one of the first things I did was hire outside consultants to analyze and recommend the best course of action for their respective areas of expertise, in addition to having the USGA review, analyze and report.

In many fields, including medicine, it's my belief that you can't have enough highly skilled professional eyes reviewing your reports/files/issues.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Question for historians and architectural gurus
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2010, 05:10:53 AM »
I think Pat is right.  The USGA gets slammed all the time because clubs want to remain among the top tier in the eyes of golfers.  In truth, club memberships should be in the line of fire for any changes to their courses.  They are the custodians, not the USGA.  At some point, clubs have to decide if they are going to serve the USGA or their memberships.  Very, very few clubs can do both successfully.  Why is it such a bad thing to drift into the eddies of golf with a glance here and there at the boards of yesteryear?  No, you can't blame the USGA because they wave a carrot in front of clubs.  In fact, why do you believe the same clubs are selected?  Its almost like a con where the mark is already seen as greedy, now the only question is to what degree can their greed be used against themselves? We must always remember that the USGA only has the power we give it.  Last I checked, they didn't have the power to alter private members' clubs.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

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