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Jim Colton

Re: The Design Process
« Reply #75 on: March 30, 2010, 01:22:31 PM »
With the AAC entries closed, let's get this party started again.
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Jim Colton

Re: The Design Process
« Reply #76 on: March 30, 2010, 01:24:28 PM »
Ben's most recent iteration:

Quote from: Ben Sims on February 15, 2010, 09:23:57 PM
Iteration #3.  

Sorry Tom, 13 isn't what you're looking for.  I can't figure it out.  But 15 is much better than expected.  I'm just lost after the 12th green.

Changes:

13) Par 4, 430-450 yards.  Downhill left to right tee fairway and landing area give way to flat creek bottom.  Can you carry the creek with the second?  Green pushed back to allow for run up shot, but don't go long, or left.

14) Par 3, 150-170 yards.  Green set in natural three sided bowl.  Possibly blind green surface.

15) Par 4, 340-360 yards.  Elevated fairway requiring a 150 yard forced carry to get to.  Topped shot makes this a three shot hole.  Anything over 260 yards off the tee requires a blind approach from a hole on the left.  I think this has some hogsback qualities.



http://cid-8d0729b4bf4a8128.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/AAC/Sims_AAC_Routing_3.skp




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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #77 on: March 30, 2010, 01:53:55 PM »
What's with the circular greens?

 :)
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #78 on: March 30, 2010, 02:37:07 PM »
Quote from: George Pazin on March 30, 2010, 01:53:55 PM
What's with the circular greens?

 :)

George,

Haven't you been watching? Charlie simplified the contest this year so even stick figures were allowed as entries. I thought sure that would mean you were finally in. ;)
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #79 on: March 30, 2010, 02:42:21 PM »
Anyone who's seen me knows I am no stick figure...

Ben, this is a terrific thread. You have drawn more of the thought process out of the archies on board than damn near any other thread. Well done on the thread.

Can't really comment on your design, the lines confuse my primitive mind.
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Nick Campanelli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #80 on: March 30, 2010, 02:49:24 PM »
Quote from: Jim Colton on March 30, 2010, 01:22:31 PM
With the AAC entries closed, let's get this party started again.

Jim,

Does this mean your posting your entry first?  Haha. 

Seriously though, should we post our routings now, or does Charlie post them all following judging?  I would definitely love to get some feedback from all the critics....
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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #81 on: March 30, 2010, 02:52:41 PM »
Nothing from designs entered should be posted until after judging. Then the party begins.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Nick Campanelli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #82 on: March 30, 2010, 02:54:39 PM »
Garland,

Agreed.  I thought some people may have been trying to get the party started too soon.   ;)
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Jim Colton

Re: The Design Process
« Reply #83 on: March 30, 2010, 02:55:14 PM »
Nick,

  I have no problem posting mine and discussing when the time comes, but I'm not sure if Charlie wants us to that until the judges have had a chance to review the entries.

  Jim
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Peter Pallotta

Re: The Design Process
« Reply #84 on: March 30, 2010, 03:00:48 PM »
George - just think of them as logos on a tee-shirt. You're a visual guy - this stuff should be easy-peasy for you!!

Architects - one of the things I drew (perhaps wrongly) from Jim Urbina's interview, and in the context of Raynor implementing CBM's ideas, was the idea that golden-age architects did not necessarily/always know how to implement a design idea, even as they were busy conceiving of it the first place. 

I had always assumed that architects (including Macdonald) would never even imagine or conceive of a design idea unless they simulatenously knew that it could be implemented and understood how it was to be done. In short, I had always assumed that inherent in the conception was the plan and process for implementation. 

But it seems that, at least in the Macdonald-Raynor situation, CBM could be free to conceptualize an idea as imaginatively as he wanted partly because he understood that he didn't have to understand how to implement that idea -- i.e. because he had as great a faith in Raynor's ability to conceive and execute the implementation and he had in his own ability to conceptualize an idea. 

Is that true? If so, is it true today? (I wouldn't think so, but I could of course be wrong....)

Peter


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Nick Campanelli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #85 on: March 30, 2010, 03:03:37 PM »
Jim,

No problem.  I wish there was a sarcasm buttom to hit somewhere.  Its the one place where the internet fails.  I look forward to seeing everyones submissions, when the time comes. 
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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #86 on: March 30, 2010, 03:05:51 PM »
Peter, I've entered many contests in the past. I'm just a little tired of doing them, particularly as my ideas seem diametrically opposed to everyone else's. It's kind of unfortunate my apathy has coincided with Charlie's terrific efforts, but that's not the first time I've missed the boat! :)

Hats off to everyone who entered.
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #87 on: March 30, 2010, 03:39:46 PM »
I initially planned on entering the contest, but a combination of time and Sketch-up ineptitude accounted for that.

That said, I completed a routing I was really excited about and managed to lay out five holes to give an idea of the style I was designing.

I'd be interested in any feedback.
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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #88 on: March 30, 2010, 05:32:22 PM »
Scott,

Why are the green side bunkers so far from the greens?
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #89 on: March 30, 2010, 06:44:51 PM »
Quote from: PPallotta on March 30, 2010, 03:00:48 PM

Architects - one of the things I drew (perhaps wrongly) from Jim Urbina's interview, and in the context of Raynor implementing CBM's ideas, was the idea that golden-age architects did not necessarily/always know how to implement a design idea, even as they were busy conceiving of it the first place. 

I had always assumed that architects (including Macdonald) would never even imagine or conceive of a design idea unless they simulatenously knew that it could be implemented and understood how it was to be done. In short, I had always assumed that inherent in the conception was the plan and process for implementation. 

But it seems that, at least in the Macdonald-Raynor situation, CBM could be free to conceptualize an idea as imaginatively as he wanted partly because he understood that he didn't have to understand how to implement that idea -- i.e. because he had as great a faith in Raynor's ability to conceive and execute the implementation and he had in his own ability to conceptualize an idea. 

Is that true? If so, is it true today? (I wouldn't think so, but I could of course be wrong....)

Peter


Peter:

There have always been architects who were less understanding of construction / implementation, and architects who understood it very well.

I don't know why anyone would assume C. B. Macdonald was in the former camp.  In his early days, he probably knew as much about golf course construction / implementation as anybody in America -- though nothing compared to what we know now, which is why Old Macdonald has a chance to be interesting.

Seth Raynor was a trained engineer, but he knew nothing about golf courses when he started with Macdonald.  I imagine that they both taught each other (or even invented from scratch!) some useful things about golf course construction, but I wouldn't chalk up "implementation" all to Raynor, at least in the beginning.  By the end, Macdonald had lost interest and Raynor was running the show.
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Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #90 on: March 30, 2010, 06:50:17 PM »
Why do people continue to choose that spot for a dell hole?  ???

I don't want to comment to much on the holes because I can't really say what I would've done (I'm in the contest). But that seems like a long walk back from green to tee at the top of the page.
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Gary_K

Re: The Design Process
« Reply #91 on: March 30, 2010, 07:17:15 PM »
Whoa. I didn't read this read before i sent in my entry.  I didn't label/describe holes by their type (Dell Hole).  I hope that wasn't required.

Of all the holes/routings posted, I see only one hole that looks like one of mine, Charlies's Orange Hole 8, except mine is a par 5.  I look forward to seeing the routings.

Gary K.
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Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #92 on: March 30, 2010, 07:25:09 PM »
Quote from: George Pazin on March 30, 2010, 02:42:21 PM
Anyone who's seen me knows I am no stick figure...

Ben, this is a terrific thread. You have drawn more of the thought process out of the archies on board than damn near any other thread. Well done on the thread.

Can't really comment on your design, the lines confuse my primitive mind.

Thanks George.  I tried to honor the opinions of others--some were good friends of mine-- in "desk drawer-ing" it for a few weeks until AAC was closed.  

I also did what Tom asked and didn't even make a glance at it for that time period.  Like any creative endeaver, things change.  I have recently been on a tear studying courses of the Northeast.  (I will be at my best friends wedding in Connecticut in May, and am looking to play some golf while I'm up there.)  Aerially, places like Eastward Ho!, Friars Head, Tamarack, Yale, Kittansett, Newport CC are so carefully draped on the terrain.  Green to tee transfers are minimal, and the bunkering is positioned so well.  I love me some cowboy golf out west on the new American links of Nebraska and Oregon and Colorado.  But the classics in New England and Long Island are really getting my attention right now.

As such, I will tackle a much more walker friendly routing tonight.  I also want to cross more contour lines as opposed to running with them after studying these great courses more.  For some reason, I had Ballyneal in mind while I was routing this land.  Now I see the fallacy of that idea.  I must find a reputation for THIS property.  Not take another course's reputation and force it.


We'll see how it comes out.  And as always, Tom and you guys will be here to frag me if I step too far out of bounds. ;D

I'm excited to get it started again.
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #93 on: March 30, 2010, 07:36:18 PM »
Quote from: Ben Sims on February 13, 2010, 11:06:56 PM
As far as the Dell being where it is, I couldn't find more natural site for it.  Plus I'm forcing it onto the routing based on my wanting to have one.  But to directly answer your question...no.


The upper left corner has a larger hill that could make a Dell hole with the tee backed up against the OB.  Maybe a hole playing S to N with OB left to get you there.

There could be some terrific diagonal carries over that creek, adding challenge and excitement!
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Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #94 on: March 30, 2010, 07:55:58 PM »
 8) Knock yerself out Ben!

Entrants should give Charlie & the Judges their time..

p.s.  if everyone stays cool, Charlie may even transpose some of the best holes into views using sketchup.. which is really cool..

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Nick Campanelli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #95 on: March 30, 2010, 08:19:12 PM »
I have an extruded version (3D Model) of the SketchUp base Charlie put together i used to help visualize the holes.  Thought it may be of interest for people to see (given the contest is done).  Unfortunately, its currently too large to post (41mb).  I'll try to reduce its size, hopefully i can get it down to a manageable size.  If anyone has access to an FTP site, i can send it to them.  Otherwise, i really dont know of a way to send a file so large, yet.  Sorry for the tease.  I'll do my best to make this available.  It brings the 2D site plan to life! 
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Thomas McQuillan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #96 on: March 30, 2010, 08:24:47 PM »
could you post a link to the files or something? that may get around the whole file size thing
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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #97 on: March 30, 2010, 08:25:52 PM »
Quote from: Thomas McQuillan on March 30, 2010, 08:24:47 PM
could you post a link to the files or something? that may get around the whole file size thing

I would ask Nick not to be sharing his entry until the contest judging is over.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Thomas McQuillan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #98 on: March 30, 2010, 08:31:28 PM »
I didn't post an entry and I thought it was already over so I apologise. When will the judging be finished? I'm anxious to see the finished versions.
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Nick Campanelli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #99 on: March 30, 2010, 08:36:55 PM »
Quote from: Garland Bayley on March 30, 2010, 08:25:52 PM
Quote from: Thomas McQuillan on March 30, 2010, 08:24:47 PM
could you post a link to the files or something? that may get around the whole file size thing

I would ask Nick not to be sharing his entry until the contest judging is over.



Sorry for the confusion Garland.  My design is not on the 3D model.  Its a study model I used prior to laying the design over it.  Its merely a 3D version of what Charlie initially posted.  No worries.  I'm not looking to post anything prematurely.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2010, 08:52:05 PM by Nick Campanelli »
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