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Ben Sims

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The Design Process
« on: February 13, 2010, 07:49:04 PM »
So I've decided to withdraw my entry from the Armchair Architect contest.  Not that I'm not participating, but that I am going to chronicle the process of it on the site for all to see--which I'm pretty sure disqualifies me from the competition.  

But in this manner, I feel like I can learn far more about routing/pacing concepts and application via a topographic map.  Please comment as you see fit.  Don't worry about making me feel bad, I'm sure any critique over my ridiculous attempt won't make me feel as bad as some things I've been told in the cockpit over the years.

It's in Sketchup version unfortunately.  So anyone that can help me change the format to one more conducive to critique by the masses would be much appreciated.

Holes are labeled to the par.  Green shaded circle = planned green area.  This is a very preliminary routing for 9 holes.  Tell me what you think.  

http://cid-8d0729b4bf4a8128.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/AAC/AAC_Routing.skp

If you're curious, the yardage on those 9 holes at a par of 35 is 3300-ish.


« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 07:57:24 PM by Ben Sims »
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Tom_Doak

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Re: The Design Process
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2010, 07:54:27 PM »
You started with a routing for nine holes?

I think you've skipped a step.  First step is to identify a few potential favorite holes on the property.
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Ben Sims

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Re: The Design Process
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2010, 07:58:39 PM »
Tom,

I did.  The short par 3.  The par 4 that benches the green on a ridge at the top right.  But you're right, I haven't even looked across the creek yet.

My technique was to find two or three holes that I loved on each side of the property, but you're saying that I need to do that for the WHOLE property??
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 08:00:10 PM by Ben Sims »
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Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2010, 08:13:06 PM »
I was going to give this a shot...but I am having a hard time visualizing the ground via this map.  Not a real surprise I suppose, given I haven't ever done anything like this before;

but still I thought this whole thing would go more along the lines of this...




Now that...I could do!!
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Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2010, 08:18:22 PM »
Mac,

I'll admit.  The romance of being a GCA--for me at least--involves walking land and getting my hands dirty.  Routing and drawing on a topo on my home computer is kind of like playing St. Andrews....on the Xbox!!
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Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Design Process
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2010, 08:21:56 PM »

Ben

First step is 'The Land Fit for Purpose' ;)  Thats before the routing, right Tom

Melvyn ;D
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Charlie Goerges

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Re: The Design Process
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2010, 08:24:30 PM »
Here's Ben's Routing:


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Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2010, 08:27:50 PM »
As you all know by now, I am not afraid to ask questions that make me look like a complete idiot, in fact it happens so much it is my status quo   ;)

But nevertheless, can you guys look at that routing and topo map and get a sense of what the holes are all about?

I can not whatsoever.
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Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2010, 10:40:21 PM »
Mac:

I can tell.

For example, on the hole at the top of Ben's routing, playing from right to left, that's a short par 4 from an elevated tee down into a hollow, with the green tucked into a little nook on the far bank.  But, it's hard to know whether Ben intends for you to be able to play over the shoulder at the right front of the green, or whether that will be bunkered or be rough ... it all depends on where the fairway is going to be.

That tee is an awfully long way from the previous green, though ... let's hope that was the first hole of the nine.

Ben:

Do you really think the Dell hole will be as interesting if it's only a ten or twelve foot hill in front of the green?  The real one is 25-30 feet high.
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Mac Plumart

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Re: The Design Process
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2010, 10:46:00 PM »
Tom...

May I ask a favor?

Could you describe one more hole on Ben's drawing in a similiar manner to what you just did?

If you are offline and/or too busy, I understand...but the lightbulb flickered for me during your last description...however, it didn't fully illuminate.

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Charlie Goerges

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Re: The Design Process
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2010, 10:52:17 PM »
Ben,

One question. Why didn't you go down by the creek first? I saw all kinds of holes along and around that thing.

In fact, if you like I could post a routing I've been working on. If not, no big deal, I can understand if you don't want to be influenced.
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Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Ben Sims

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Re: The Design Process
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2010, 11:06:56 PM »
Tom,

The par 4 you mention is what I consider either the 1st or 10th hole.  I plan on having a bunker in the face of that shoulder.  I think I've seen blind approaches from one side with a big bunker scaring you on a couple courses....can't remember where  :)

As far as the Dell being where it is, I couldn't find more natural site for it.  Plus I'm forcing it onto the routing based on my wanting to have one.  But to directly answer your question...no.  Please continue to rip up the routing though, I'm learning a lot.  

Charlie,

I wanted to tackle the less severe "left side" of the property first.  I know this isn't how a real archie would do it, but a rookie like me needed to swing easy at first, not hard.  Plus I made a deal with myself that the creek will play no role for me on this routing.  That is, I won't put a single carry over it on any hole.  Not that I'm poo-poo'ing creeks per se, it's just not what I see when I see that property.  The contouring looks much more fun...
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 11:09:24 PM by Ben Sims »
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Charlie Goerges

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Re: The Design Process
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2010, 11:17:31 PM »
That's a fine reason not to use the creek, you should be doing with it what you want. I don't think you should shy away from the more difficult side of the property because you aren't experienced. I think I agree with Tom that you should just look for holes wherever they present themselves.
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Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Design Process
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2010, 11:25:31 PM »
Thanks Charlie.  Please feel free to post anything you wish.  As I pointed out, I'm out of the actual competition.  I just want to learn and see if I can find some solid golf holes and get some tips from those that know.  Seriously!!  Do you think Chuck Yeager was around for conversation when I first started flying jets?  That's why this website is so cool.

I also may not be fully focused.  Short track speedskating it fun to watch. 
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Matt Bosela

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Re: The Design Process
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2010, 12:03:38 AM »
Ben,

Thanks for starting this thread - I think it could be very illuminating for people like me who want to take part in this contest but have no idea where to start with a routing or how to properly read a topographic map. 
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Ben Sims

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Re: The Design Process
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2010, 12:18:47 AM »
Matt,

Hopefully we'll have a bunch of folks come here to critique and question my decisions, and in the process provide some insight on the whole she-bang.  It wasn't like I had a chance of winning anyway. 

But in my humble opinion, the FIRST place you start in routing a course is to walk the property, not stare at a topo.
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Matt Bosela

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Re: The Design Process
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2010, 01:55:48 AM »
I'm not sure if this is a stupid question or not but here it goes:

I'm first of all assuming that the creek won't offer enough water to properly irrigate the golf course.  Would I be correct in that assumption?

Secondly, how much importance does an irrigation pond play in routing a golf course?  Is it an afterthought or does the architect usually figure out early in the process where he/she will put a pond and then work around that?
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Mac Plumart

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Re: The Design Process
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2010, 08:06:56 AM »
Matt...

For whatever this is worth, in Tom Fazio's book the only thing that he says he needs on a property is an adequate source of water.  Other than that he can create anything he needs.

Excellent pick-up!

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Jim Colton

Re: The Design Process
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2010, 08:08:17 AM »
Nice work on the Dell, Mr. Dell. Very fitting since Charlie ripped that part of the topo from the Ill-fated Dell at Erin Hills. I'm not sure that's the one you want to copycat though.

I had a nice routing all worked out last night, up until I realized I had 19 holes.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 08:41:24 AM by Jim Colton »
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Tim Nugent

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Re: The Design Process
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2010, 09:25:45 AM »
Ben, I see no problem starting on the left side. In fact that is what I did.  What some may look upon as "easy",  I find more challenging to get good holes out of, the Creek and right side I find as a no-brainer to get good holes out of.

However, before jumping right in and designing a routing, take Tom's advice and just find as many good, natural holes as you can, don't worry about connecting them to anything else. (they can go over the top of each other if you put them all together).  Think of it as a series of "find the best hole on this property" and do it over and over.  You might end up with 100 holes -who knows. 

Also, if you wish to have a clubhouse/ parking lot or a driving range, find as many good spots for these too.  Then you can start trying to tie everything together into a routing.

Good luck and don't fret - it isn't as easy as it looks.
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Tom_Doak

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Re: The Design Process
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2010, 09:44:52 AM »
Ben:

What distance are you using for the turning points of the doglegs?  I can't tell exactly what scale we're at.  It would help a lot to know.  [I still use the 800 feet that Pete Dye taught me 28 years ago.  Bill Coore uses 850 feet.  Some guys use 900, but obviously not many players are going to average 300 yards off the tee.]
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Adrian_Stiff

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Re: The Design Process
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2010, 10:04:20 AM »
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Tom_Doak

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Re: The Design Process
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2010, 10:10:37 AM »
OK, Mac, I will try to give a brief summary of the rest of Ben's holes:

#2 - medium par-4.  Tee shot over low ridges protruding in from the right and the left; second shot to green in saddle between two small hills.  Best hole on his routing by far, although the tee is on an upslope and he probably can't see as much of the hole as he would like to.  Might be able to extend the tee further up on the map, to hit over the hollow off the tee and make it a par five.

#3 is his small Dell hole, already commented.

#4 is a short par-4, hillside on the left of the fairway all the way ... a bit like #14 at Ballyneal.

#5 is a decent par-5, just over bottom of valley to landing area, then 18-20 feet back uphill to a skyline green.

#6 is a par-3 out along a narrow ridge, falling away to both sides.  Think #2 at Kingsley, but not as severe.

#7 is probably the weakest hole.  Drive diagonally down into narrow valley; pull it a bit left and you run into a steep bank on the far side.  But then the second shot is to a green site that falls away too steeply, and would require fill, unless I've got the scale all wrong here.  If the green and tee slid back to the south 100 feet this would be much better.

#8  I'm going to take a wild guess that this is where Charlie stitched his two maps together, because the topo was really hard to read here ... the fairway and green are along a narrow ridge that comes up 8 feet from the last dark contour on the left, flattens off briefly, and then goes back down 8 feet to the dark contour on the right.  Not many landforms that make a transition like that.  Anyway, routing along the ridge is a cool idea, but it's very narrow and steep to both sides, so probably needs earthwork in the landing area and on the green.

#9 plays downhill over a bump on the right to the bottom of a valley, then turns and comes back uphill to a green set on top of a narrow ridge, with a steep fall at the right front and back of the green.  Probably too severe for a green site, requiring some earthwork, and certainly an aerial approach.  
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Mac Plumart

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Re: The Design Process
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2010, 10:15:16 AM »
Tom...

Awesome!  Thanks!

I owe you one.  If you ever get to Atlanta, look me up.  Free dinner at Bones, Rathuns's, or Bluepointe.

Thanks again!
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Greg Krueger

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Re: The Design Process
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2010, 10:25:42 AM »
Ben, I think you did a pretty good routing. One thing to remember is the direction of holes, there are some stretches where you are going in the same direction for several holes in a row. Just a thought for you.
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