The Design Process

[Matt Bosela]

Thanks to Mac for addressing my question but I still ask whether people feel this land would require an irrigation pond and if so, how big would it have to be?  There looks to be an area of the land that looks well suited for a pond but again, I just want to make sure it's necessary, as I'd rather not have something artificial there unless it's needed for the site.

[Ben Sims]

Tom,

You're a freak. Wow. Even the hole comparisons were pretty spot on. Turn points were between 790-850.  Except for 1(10) and 4(13) which turn at 1000 feet and 680 feet respectively.  The first is effectively a straight hole, I just wanted to illustrate that the green was in that nook behind the shoulder.  4(13) is my short par 4, 290 yards.  Try and break off a high draw off the tee.  But the best way by far to make birdie will be a mid iron to the right of the hill. Then a short iron/wedge up to the green.

-The radii for the green circles is at 75', if that gives you an idea of what I chose for greensites.  

-There's probably a better way to route 7-9, but I'm still working on it.  

-The Dell is indeed weak.  But the green surface is 16 feet below the top of the top of the knob, and it would definitely be blind.   But it abuts what is my favorite hole so far, the 2nd hole.  Thanks for the recognizing that one.

-Nice job comparing the longer par 3 to Kingsley #2, though I would like to shift the tee and green to have some redan characteristics.  

-Thanks for the tip on 7, that could work as a reverse version of your 6th at Stone Eagle.

-On 9, think Ocean hole at Old Mac....

Jim,

So the feedback on the Dell isn't great, maybe I'll strike it from the course.

Tim,

I'll find a clubhouse and range after I find the holes I like.  

Adrian,

Thanks for the constructive feedback.  As an aside, please come flying with me sometime...bring a puke bag.

[TEPaul]

TomD:

Have you ever heard the story when Ray Floyd's longtime caddie, Golf Ball, hands him a 5 iron for the approach shot on the second hole and tells Ray it's a normal 175 yards. Ray knocks it about 40 yards over the green and turns to Golf Ball and says; "What the hell is that all about?" Golf Ball checks his yardage book for the second hole again and says: "I don't know, it says 175 yards from where we were on the second hole at Memphis." Floyd says: "Golf Ball, Memphis was last week, we're on the second hole in Houston this week."

The reason I ask if you've ever heard that story is I was just wondering if you've ever spent time doing a topo routing for a site you've never seen only to show up at the site and realize the topo isn't for that site?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Ben - Sorry ta be rude, i was sort of joking really. As a general rude when you look at topos look at the wider bands and gaps for fairways and try and route towards them, there are some great natural fairways within that map. Ive only just seen this thread, what are the VIs of the contours and where is the clubhouse, what are those grid lines spaced at?

[Ben Sims]

Adrian,

No worries.  I expect the "yer a dumbass" stuff.  I would prefer "yer a dumbass and this is why".  That's the whole point of me bringing my routing public and not hiding it for an entire month, aimlessly roaming with no earthly idea what in the hell is going on.  I think I routed towards natural points for a fairway, witht he exceptions being the downhill dogleg right par 4, and the one with the fairway along the ridge immediately after it.

For info, the contours are at 2 feet, the grid lines are at 1320 feet, so 40 acres per square.  It's a 640 acre site, hence why I'm taking the walkabout technique for routing.  I forgot who said it, but using a routing that just feels like taking a walk around the property seems like a great way to route.

[Charlie Goerges]

Ben, You're a DUMBASS! No explanation necessary!

[Charlie Goerges]

Okay Ben, since you gave me leave to post a routing, below is what I've got thus far. Not all of the holes are there. I'm in the process of routing 27 holes because I found a few favorites that I couldn't stitch together within 18 holes (unless I wanted to make par 7s and 8s). Also, many of the holes do feel like "connector" holes. Nevertheless, I'd greatly appreciate any critiques anyone would be willing to give. I can also post ground-level 3D images as well. I'll post the routing and put a few comments below it.







The first hole I found was Green #4 followed by Green #5. Then I found Blue #8. Then I found Green #s 6-9. After that I can't remember it all, accept that Orange #8 was one of the last if not the last.

The favorites that I wanted to keep no matter what were Green 4 and Blue 8. I also had a strong liking for Green 6. This combined with a few other ideas and other pet holes lead me to 27. Orange #8 is also now a favorite. I felt like the way to make a split fairway hole work wasn't to give a distance advantage for the more difficult fairway, but some other advantage. In this case better helping slopes and an open view of the green.

Everyone please let me know what you think.

[Tim Nugent]

Matt, most of the time, if the water is flowing in a creek, it should be sufficent as a water source, however a flowing creek can carry all sorts of suspended particles etc. so it is wise to pump into a resevior pond (couple acres) to allow those particles to settle out.  Just make your assumptions and go.

[Ben Sims]

Charlie,

I'm really digging blue 3, blue 8, and green 3.  Green 5 looks good, but a bit severe in the green area.  Both you and I routed a few holes requiring earthwork to make feasible.  Orange 8--sorry but just like my Dell--seems a bit forced.  I haven't even begun to try and draw fairways, I still need more time routing.  In fact, I'll probably spend this entire week routing my final 18, before I even consider roughing in shapes for tees, fairways, bunkers and greens. 

Upon further analysis, maybe you should delete all Orange holes and start those over.  Even though Orange 6 look intriguing.

[Garland Bayley]

...
#9 plays downhill over a bump on the right to the bottom of a valley, then turns and comes back uphill to a green set on top of a narrow ridge, with a steep fall at the right front and back of the green.  Probably too severe for a green site, requiring some earthwork, and certainly an aerial approach.  

That's the first hole I looked at, and my first thought was, "Ben, how much dirt do you plan to move?"

[Matt Bosela]

Matt, most of the time, if the water is flowing in a creek, it should be sufficent as a water source, however a flowing creek can carry all sorts of suspended particles etc. so it is wise to pump into a resevior pond (couple acres) to allow those particles to settle out.  Just make your assumptions and go.

Tim,

Many thanks for answering my question.  Much appreciated!

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian,

No worries.  I expect the "yer a dumbass" stuff.  I would prefer "yer a dumbass and this is why".  That's the whole point of me bringing my routing public and not hiding it for an entire month, aimlessly roaming with no earthly idea what in the hell is going on.  I think I routed towards natural points for a fairway, witht he exceptions being the downhill dogleg right par 4, and the one with the fairway along the ridge immediately after it.

For info, the contours are at 2 feet, the grid lines are at 1320 feet, so 40 acres per square.  It's a 640 acre site, hence why I'm taking the walkabout technique for routing.  I forgot who said it, but using a routing that just feels like taking a walk around the property seems like a great way to route.

Ben - At that scale thats a pretty flat site then. I'd be looking for a 72 hole course on that property.

[Tom_Doak]

TomD:

The reason I ask if you've ever heard that story is I was just wondering if you've ever spent time doing a topo routing for a site you've never seen only to show up at the site and realize the topo isn't for that site?

Tom P:

That pretty much happened to me this past year, on the site in Florida where we have been working.

I spoke with Bill Coore about it over the phone while looking at the topo map, and I couldn't figure out exactly where he was talking about a potential clubhouse, but he said he would prefer to take the land northeast of it and I could take some of the south land.  That was okay with me, because there were some pretty dramatic contours in the south half of the map.

When we got to the site a couple of weeks later, I just couldn't get my bearings at all.  I was sitting in the front seat and Bill was in back, and he kept glancing over my shoulder because he knew I was struggling and something about my map looked unfamiliar.  This is a large-scale mining site, and as it turned out, most of the land to the south had been bulldozed back over after the topo was flown, so "my half" of the site was now almost entirely flat!

That turned out to be a great thing, because Bill and I decided we would have to figure out a way to work together to divide up the good land, and somehow I've wound up with some of Bill's best holes on my course.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

You're a freak.

Ben:

I would be equally impressed if I watched you land a plane, and you would think that was equally silly.  Anybody in our business ought to be able to describe your course just as quickly as I did ... although there are some pros who might not be so quick at it.

[Kalen Braley]

Great thread so far guys, really good stuff.

Tom,

If you were actually given this piece of land to come up with something, given that its a square piece of land more or less, how many possible routings would you likely come up with?  I say this with the reference point to the recent Barnbougle Dunes thread where it sounds like the routing was completely reversed relativly late in the process which must have made you either have a reserve routing to do it that way or coming up with some new green sites awfully quick.

Thanks,

[Tom_Doak]

Kalen:

The site for Barnbougle was completely different than this ... it was a very narrow strip of dunes, so there was never really a choice of routing holes across the dunes laterally.  You could only go out and back on a strip two holes wide, with a couple of places where it widened out slightly.  So there were not a million possible solutions; it was only a question of whether to go clockwise or counterclockwise, and where were the best places to stop along the way.  I had looked at the counterclockwise loop briefly before, so it only took me a couple of days to do the rerouting when I decided that was the way to go.

For a site like this, there's no telling how long it will take, or how many versions.  Generally though, I think I do fewer routings than a lot of architects do.  I don't do 20 different versions just to say I did a lot of them.  I try to identify the holes I'm most excited about, and then see how to put them together without any weak links.  Now, on a 640-acre site, Ben hasn't even explored half of the property, and you could spend weeks putting together routings for that part of the ground ... but if you can't identify a few holes on that side which you're dying to build, then it would probably be a waste of time.

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

Thanks for the insights, I did realize BD had less options, was mostly curious how much you activly figured out before starting construction.

On a side note, I watched a really fascinating based-on-true-life movie over the weekend about Temple Grandin, an autistic woman who had great success in her field. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Grandin. According to her, speech is her 2nd langauge as she claims to see and learn everything visually before she can figure out and relate to abstract ideas.   As a younger kid, did things just sort of click visually to you and then later on you learned how to identify/describe them using topo maps and/or language?

P.S.  I'm not trying to imply in any way that you're autistic, just curious as to your personal learning method.

[Ben Sims]

--Charlie, please repost the file for me again, as I still don't know how.--

The next iteration. Par of 37/34 distances at 3650/3260  It's rough for sure, some tweaking to be done, but I'm pretty juiced about this version.  I've always identified with the unbalanced line in football, and I identify with a couple of Tom's courses that are unbalanced as well.  Not that I set out to do it that way, but the routing along the more severe areas on the top right provide some cool options for par 3's. 

Some little enclaves of privacy like the 5th tee and 12th green were highlights.  As was trying to figure out the stretch that is now 13-17.  I also tried to route an out and back instead of looping nines, but with options for "cut offs" to shorten the round while hitting highlights of the course, kind of like the Whiskey loop at Ballyneal. 

http://cid-8d0729b4bf4a8128.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/AAC/Sims_AAC_Routing_2.skp


1) Par 4, 380-410 yards.  Downhill tee shot, uphill approach to green tucked into a little nook.

2) Par 3, 165-180. Slightly uphill mid-length par three to a green set into a saddle. 

3) Par 4, 360-380.  Fairway routed through a couple 6-10 foot rises into a green set hard against a 15 foot hill.   It could play a bit like 7 at Ballyneal if done properly.

4) Par 4, 310-330.  I tried to combine 3rd at National and 10th at Riv here.  Lofty?  Sure.  Hill will be native, so driving it would be uber tough.  Best option is either short of the hill and then a blind approach, or out the the left and get a look at the green.

5) Par 4, 270-290.  Drivable with a high draw.  Think a shorter 14th at Ballyneal, with bunker on the front left of green that are blind from the tee.

6) Par 5, 530-550.  Reachable par 5.  Slightly downhill tee shot, uphill to a skyline green.  Solid if not spectacular.

7) Par 5, 610-630.  Three shot par 5.  Downhill tee ball, approach through the valley.  Small-ish green set against a rise. 

8( Par 4, 400-420.  Uphill all the way to a green set on the ridgeline.  Putting surface could be blind to the approach.

9) Par 4, 480-500.  Monster two-shotter. Slightly downhill approach set into side of hill accepting running shots.  Great match hole for the short hitter vs. long hitter.

10) Par 4, 360-380.  Forced carry (sorry) to a landing area slightly above the player on the opposite hill.  Short-ish downhill approach to a green shelved into the back of the hill.

11) Par 5, 560-580.  Mid length par 5.  Downhill tee ball , level approach to a green set against a knob.

12) Par 3, 230-250.  Long one-shotter to a back to front sloped, large green set into the end of a valley.  Green site reminds me of 15th at B Trails or 14h at Friars.

13) Par 4, 440-460.  Long-ish par 4, blind tee shot between two hill.  Get it to 250, turbo boost!!  Approach to green set in a slight nook.

14) Par 4, 350-370.  Fairway routed along creek to some small rises, turning right to a green benefiting from terrain to the right.

15) Par 3, 130-150.  Uphill and short par three to green set 20 fee above the golfer.  Trying to channel the 11th at Ballyneal here.

16) Par 3, 180-200.  Mid to long par 3 to green shelved into hill opposite the creek from the golfer. 

17) Par 4, 340-360.  Short-ish par 4.  Tee shot down the valley, left turn approach to green set between two prominent rises.  Maybe a bit too much like the 2nd hole, but I dig the concept.

18) Par 4, 410-430.  Side hill tee shot, turning uphill to green set into the ridge.  Hardest hole on the backside, finish ascends golfer back to the high terrain that clubhouse sits on.

How bad did I do?!?!

[Rob Rigg]

This thread should have a "sticky" to keep it at the top.

Great stuff.

Very educational.

[Jim Colton]

Here you go Ben.  Nice work.

[Tom_Doak]

Aaarrgh.  Well, I guess if you want guys to learn, you've got to let them learn from their mistakes.

Ben:  Try #12 - 15 again.  Don't back up to #13 tee.  Go through the gap, and then look for the best hole on your course.  There are about four excellent possibilities for the 13th, and all of them will give you a pretty good 14th as well.

P.S.  That gap just behind your 12th green sure looks like the green site for a certain hole at Ballyneal.

[Ben Sims]

Aaarrgh.  Well, I guess if you want guys to learn, you've got to let them learn from their mistakes.

Ben:  Try #12 - 15 again.  Don't back up to #13 tee.  Go through the gap, and then look for the best hole on your course.  There are about four excellent possibilities for the 13th, and all of them will give you a pretty good 14th as well.

P.S.  That gap just behind your 12th green sure looks like the green site for a certain hole at Ballyneal.

Tom,

Yeah, aarrgh. That terrain is tough for me to visualize.  The 12th and 17th are my two favorite holes on the back, so now I have to figure out how to route that area.  

I see what you're saying about the 12th green site as well--it being backed up 150 feet or so to make a 15th (or 7th??) at Ballyneal, but then the hole's too long, and my 11th green to 12th tee transition would be way too long for it to work.  I think.

Okay, back to the drawing board, stay tuned.  This is getting fun....

[Jim Colton]

Aaarrgh.  Well, I guess if you want guys to learn, you've got to let them learn from their mistakes.

Ben:  Try #12 - 15 again.  Don't back up to #13 tee.  Go through the gap, and then look for the best hole on your course.  There are about four excellent possibilities for the 13th, and all of them will give you a pretty good 14th as well.

P.S.  That gap just behind your 12th green sure looks like the green site for a certain hole at Ballyneal.

 I recognized the 7th there as well -- resisting the urge to incorporate the copycat into my final routing.

[Garland Bayley]

Fortunately some of us are unhindered in the design process because we have never played great courses.

[Matt Bosela]

Aaarrgh.  Well, I guess if you want guys to learn, you've got to let them learn from their mistakes.

Ben:  Try #12 - 15 again.  Don't back up to #13 tee.  Go through the gap, and then look for the best hole on your course.  There are about four excellent possibilities for the 13th, and all of them will give you a pretty good 14th as well.

P.S.  That gap just behind your 12th green sure looks like the green site for a certain hole at Ballyneal.

 I recognized the 7th there as well -- resisting the urge to incorporate the copycat into my final routing.

After reading your post today at Wegoblogger31, I have to imagine it's absolutely killing you not to include it in your routing!