[Tommy Williamsen]

Enlarging on their them of best classic and best modern, Golf Week Came out with theeir top 50 classic and top 40 modern.  Here is the modern(post 1960) list.

1. Kingsbarns
Kingsbarns, Scotland, 1999
Kyle Phillips
7.84
2. Castle Stuart
Inverness, Scotland, 2009
Gil Hanse, Mark Parsinen
7.70
3. Loch Lomond
Luss, Scotland, 1994
Jay Morrish, Tom Weiskopf
7.64
4. Waterville
Waterville Ireland, 1973
Eddie Hackett, Tom Fazio
7.60
5. The European Club
Brittas Bay, Ireland, 1989
Pat Ruddy
7.35
6. Renaissance Club at Archerfield
Dirleton, Scotland, 2008
Tom Doak
7.07
7. Old Head of Kinsale
Kinsale, Ireland, 1997
E.Hackett, Joe Carr, R. Kirby, P. Merrigan, Liam Higgins
6.97
8. Carne
Belmullet, Ireland, 1995
Eddie Hackett
6.74
9. Carton House (Montgomerie)
Maynooth, Ireland, 2003
Colin Montgomerie, Design European Golf
6.63
10. Enniscrone
Enniscrone, Ireland, 1973
Eddie Hackett
6.59
11. Tralee
Tralee, Ireland, 1984
Arnold Palmer
6.57
12. Doonbeg
Doonbeg, Ireland, 2001
Greg Norman
6.52
13. Woburn (Dukes)
Woburn, England, 1976
Charles Lawrie
6.50
14. Woburn (Marquess)
Woburn, England, 1997
Clive Clark, Peter Alliss, Alex Hay, Ross McMurray
6.50
15. St. Andrews (Castle)
St. Andrews, Scotland, 2008
David McLay Kidd
6.50
16. The Grove
Watford, England, 2003
Kyle Phillips
6.50
17. Bearwood Lakes
Sindlesham, England, 1996
Martin Hawtree
6.50
18. Druid’s Glen
Newtownmountkennedy, Ireland, 1995
Pat Ruddy, Tom Craddock
6.40
19. Celtic Manor (Twenty Ten)
Newport, Wales, 2009
Ross McMurray
6.25
20. Fairmont St. Andrews (Torrance)
St. Andrews, Scotland, 2001
Sam Torrance
6.23
21. Machrihanish Dunes
Campbeltown, Scotland, 2009
David McLay Kidd
6.17
22. Carton House (O’Meara)
Maynooth, Ireland, 2002
Mark O’Meara, Design European Golf
6.17
23. Turnberry (Kintyre)
Turnberry, Scotland, 2001
Donald Steel
6.12
24. The Wisley (Garden & Mill)
Ripley, England, 1991
Robert Trent Jones Jr.
6.00
25. Chart Hills
Biddenden, England, 1993
Steve Smyers, Nick Faldo
6.00
26. Ballyliffin (Glashedy)
Ballyliffin, Ireland, 1995
Pat Ruddy, Tom Craddock
5.93
27. The Duke’s St. Andrews
St. Andrews, Scotland, 1995
Peter Thomson, Tim Liddy
5.90
28. Fota Island
Carrigtwohill, Ireland, 1993
Christy O’Connor Jr., Jeff Howes, Peter McEvoy
5.90
29. Skibo Castle
Dornoch, Scotland, 1994
Donald Steel
5.88
30. The K Club (Smurfit)
Straffan, Ireland, 1990
Arnold Palmer, Ed Seay
5.88
31. Rosapenna (Sandy Hills)
Rosapenna, Ireland, 2003
Pat Ruddy
5.88
32. Dundonald Links
Irvine, Scotland, 2003
Kyle Phillips
5.86
33. Forest of Arden (Arden)
Meriden, England, 1970
Donald Steel
5.83
34. The Carrick
Arden, Scotland, 2007
Doug Carrick
5.75
35. The K Club (Palmer)
Straffan, Ireland, 1991
Arnold Palmer
5.75
36. Crail (Craighead)
Crail, Scotland, 1998
Gil Hanse
5.69
37. Adare Manor Golf Resort
Adare, Ireland, 1995
Robert Trent Jones Sr.
5.62
38. Gleneagles (PGA Centenary)
Auchterarder, Scotland, 1993
Jack Nicklaus
5.62
39. Ballybunion (Cashen)
Ballybunion, Ireland, 1982
Robert Trent Jones Sr.
5.60
40. Fairmont St. Andrews (Kittocks)
St. Andrews, Scotland, 2001
Bruce Devlin, Gary Stephenson
5.58

[Matt_Ward]

Can someone explain to me why the layouts rated #3, #4 and #5 are deemed to be so great ?

I've played them all and while they do have their moments -- I don't see any of them being such stellar layouts.

Frankly, I would place Doonbeg as a legitimate layout that gets little love here but is a good bit better than many might imagine.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

None of the courses below #3, 4 and 5 is generally considered to be "great", either.  Including Doonbeg.  I have no idea how many changes they've made there since I saw it just before it opened, but it was kind of crazy then.

Maybe you could write a Dismal River vs. Doonbeg match play thread.  That would be fun.

Meanwhile, this list just goes to show how few great projects there have been in the UK and Ireland these past 50 years.

[Carl Nichols]

Matt-
What's your top 10?

[Kevin Pallier]

How many would one include at the top of their list on a trip to GB&I v those on the classic list ?

[Sean_A]

How many would one include at the top of their list on a trip to GB&I v those on the classic list ?

Kevin

I would seriously consider 14 of these courses either again or for the first time when planning trips to their areas.  

Kingsbarns
Castle Stuart
Waterville
Renaissance Club at Archerfield
Carne
Enniscrone
Doonbeg
St. Andrews (Castle)
Machrihanish Dunes
Ballyliffin (Glashedy)
Skibo Castle
Rosapenna (Sandy Hills)
Dundonald Links
Ballybunion (Cashen)

I spose there are about 29 on the Classic List I would like to see again or for the first time.

Ciao

[David Kelly]

I would consider #1, #2, #4 & #6 and that is about it.  I'd rather use every opportunity over there to play the classic courses multiple times. However, having played #2 last summer it will definitely be on any future itineraries.

[Tom_Doak]

How many would one include at the top of their list on a trip to GB&I v those on the classic list ?

Kevin:

There are maybe five or six courses on this list that I would think about playing, if I made a two-month trip to the UK.  Sean Arble could name 40 older courses outside the GB & I top 100 which I would have more interest in playing.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

C'mon, let's be serious shall we -- Doonbeg is a good bit better than being linked in some sort of match play contest w Dismal River.

I've always believed the short par-3 14th at Doonbeg is one of the best short type holes of that length that I have ever played and the course does have a lot more going on there than so many who turn their noses up at the place -- likely because Greg Norman is the designer there.

I didn't say Doonbeg was "great" (need to define that for me to understand completely) but I would say it's certainly no less in caliber than places like The European Club (one of the most overrated places I have ever played given the fanfare I heard about it), Loch Lomond and Waterville.

[Mark Chaplin]

I've played 3 modern and 28 classic, never having been to ireland hampers the numbers. It is noticable that a good percentage of the moderns are in the middle of no where, relative to the UK!

[David_Tepper]

It sure didn't take long for the excellence of Castle Stuart to be recognized.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have only played 15 of the top 40, but I agree with Tom that the list seems to show that there have been relatively few very good courses built in GB&I.  I am one who thinks Loch Lomond is absolutely one of the best courses built in the last 50 years in Isles.  I don't want ot get in another discussion about TEC but I really loved the course.  The courses that are highly rated that I don't understand are Tralee, and the two at Woburn.  I can't decide about Old Head.  The setting is so majestic that I get lost in the view and exciting shots.  I still don't understand the little love the Cashen course gets.  I need to get back to Scotland.  I have not played any of them.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom D:

C'mon, let's be serious shall we -- Doonbeg is a good bit better than being linked in some sort of match play contest w Dismal River.

I've always believed the short par-3 14th at Doonbeg is one of the best short type holes of that length that I have ever played and the course does have a lot more going on there than so many who turn their noses up at the place -- likely because Greg Norman is the designer there.

I didn't say Doonbeg was "great" (need to define that for me to understand completely) but I would say it's certainly no less in caliber than places like The European Club (one of the most overrated places I have ever played given the fanfare I heard about it), Loch Lomond and Waterville.

Matt:

I thought you really liked Dismal River, and it was just everyone else who disliked it.

Doonbeg has gotten surprisingly little attention on this site; there was a fair amount of discussion when it first opened, but it seems like nobody ever says anything about it when they go touring in Ireland.  I really don't remember you mentioning it before.

I have only seen Loch Lomond and Waterville, not The European Club, but all three have some support for being at the bottom end of the top 100 courses in the world.  Does that mean you think Doonbeg should be in there, or that all of them are overrated?

[Padraig Dooley]

One of the interesting aspects of this list is that many in Ireland rate Adare Manor as the best parkland course in the country but here it's got quite a few in front of it including the two Carton House courses, Fota Island (I know nobody who thinks Fota is better than Adare), Druid's Glen, and the Palmer Course at the K Club. There is no sign of Mount Juliet which is very highly rated here as well.

[Kevin Pallier]

I would consider #1, #2, #4 & #6 and that is about it.  I'd rather use every opportunity over there to play the classic courses multiple times. However, having played #2 last summer it will definitely be on any future itineraries.

David / Tom

I haven't seen # 2 but have seen more than half here - like you - I'd be more keen to search out "classics" + repeat plays on them as a headline of a trip than going back to most above.

[Chris DeNigris]

Likely Machrihanish Dunes is 10-15 spots too low. Surely not enough have yet made the trek down to the Mull of K to see what's special there.

And as far as folks eventually playing..it's really a no-brainer. Few are going to go all the way to Campbelltown to play the classic Old course without hitting the Dunes while there...

[Jonathan Cummings]

Look at this from Golfweek's point of view.  It's their first time they have ventured to GB/I.  There are bound to be some initial bumps and surprises.  As they collect more votes I predict their subsequent lists will converge and stablize.

JC   

[Jud_T]

Courses I want to see at least once that I have yet to get to:

Castle Stuart
Renaissance Club at Archerfield
Carne
Enniscrone
St. Andrews (Castle)
Machrihanish Dunes

Courses I've played that I would like to see again:

Kingsbarns

[Richard Phinney]

I'd rather play Ballyliffen Old (1973)  - by the redoubtable duo of Martin Niland and Martin Hopkins -- than probably 10 of these courses.

[Shane Wright]

Matt,

I haven't played Doonbeg yet so I can't really discuss how good it is or isn't.  However, I have been to the SW of Ireland twice in the last 4 years and when we were deciding our itinerary, we just couldn't justify putting Doonbeg in the itinerary.  For us, playing Waterville, Ballybunion, Lahinch, or even Tralee took precedence and it boiled down to price.  Doonbeg's prices are ridiculous.  But if it works for them, more power to them.  The other 4 aren't cheap either, but it wasn't close to Doonbeg.  I suspect this might be one reason its general appeal isn't higher.  I imagine there are quite a few who take it off the list because of price.  I would love to see it, but no way in any situation am I going to play it over Lahinch or Ballybunion at the prices they are charging.

[Gary Slatter]

Sorry, just like seeing the Torrance and Kittocks in the top 40!

K Club is close to where it should be.
Celtic Manor 2010 should be around 50.  So should Gleneagles Nicklaus PGA RC.   two unfortunate Ryder Cup sites.
Forest of Arden and Dukes should move up to 21 and 22.
Castle Course should be around 35th, not 15th.
Renaissance Club isn't top 6 yet.
Loch Lomond should be around 10th.

Although I enjoyed playing Kingsbarns I don't see why it is so good.  In 2007, 2008 and 2009 I thought the greens were in poor condition.

[Sean_A]

Matt,

I haven't played Doonbeg yet so I can't really discuss how good it is or isn't.  However, I have been to the SW of Ireland twice in the last 4 years and when we were deciding our itinerary, we just couldn't justify putting Doonbeg in the itinerary.  For us, playing Waterville, Ballybunion, Lahinch, or even Tralee took precedence and it boiled down to price.  Doonbeg's prices are ridiculous.  But if it works for them, more power to them.  The other 4 aren't cheap either, but it wasn't close to Doonbeg.  I suspect this might be one reason its general appeal isn't higher.  I imagine there are quite a few who take it off the list because of price.  I would love to see it, but no way in any situation am I going to play it over Lahinch or Ballybunion at the prices they are charging.

Shane

The price is the reason why I haven't played at least a few of these courses already.  The trend these past ten years is for the new boys to charge as much or more than the old established clubs.  That is a model which generally doesn't work for me.  The attitude is 100% based on this corporate grab and run mentality (which has been running rampant in golf for a few decades now) relying on stupid golfers to step up and empty their wallets.  Its almost as if its a badge of quality to charge the earth for a game of golf. 

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

The "Old" course at Ballyliffin was only built in 1973?  I figured it was way older than that.  Good on them!

[Shane Wright]

[/quote]

Shane

The price is the reason why I haven't played at least a few of these courses already.  The trend these past ten years is for the new boys to charge as much or more than the old established clubs.  That is a model which generally doesn't work for me.  The attitude is 100% based on this corporate grab and run mentality (which has been running rampant in golf for a few decades now) relying on stupid golfers to step up and empty their wallets.  Its almost as if its a badge of quality to charge the earth for a game of golf. 

Ciao
[/quote]

Sean - I wonder what the staying power of the prices at a Doonbeg is going to be.  Many probably play it once for the curiosity and because it is newer.  But the strong majority probably don't keep going back.  With this assumption, I don't see how they can hold their prices for too long.  I have paid plenty of money for many really good golf courses, but I felt like Doonbeg was in the ridiculous category.  However, I would really like to see it someday.

[Sean_A]

Shane

The price is the reason why I haven't played at least a few of these courses already.  The trend these past ten years is for the new boys to charge as much or more than the old established clubs.  That is a model which generally doesn't work for me.  The attitude is 100% based on this corporate grab and run mentality (which has been running rampant in golf for a few decades now) relying on stupid golfers to step up and empty their wallets.  Its almost as if its a badge of quality to charge the earth for a game of golf. 

Ciao
[/quote]

Sean - I wonder what the staying power of the prices at a Doonbeg is going to be.  Many probably play it once for the curiosity and because it is newer.  But the strong majority probably don't keep going back.  With this assumption, I don't see how they can hold their prices for too long.  I have paid plenty of money for many really good golf courses, but I felt like Doonbeg was in the ridiculous category.  However, I would really like to see it someday.


[/quote]

Shane

To be honest, I don't know what it costs to play Doonbeg.  I was told some time ago and remember it being a lot - too much.  Kingsbarns is out of my league as well, but I have walked that course.  I think Doonbeg is meant to be a destination club.  Folks buy property and holiday there, but I don't know how well this has worked out.

Ciao

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