[Peter Zarlengo]

What is the cant on the 18th hole at Cherry Hills?

Haven't there been US Opens when no tee shot could hold the fairway ... they just kept rolling until they hit the rough?

Carl,
From lake level to the far right hand side of the fairway, there can't be more that 20 feet of elevation change. Over a 135 foot wide fairway (probably the widest on the course, probably due to the elevation change) that would mean around a 15% slope. I think that the diagonal nature of the shot though decreases the severity of the slope though, with a perpendicular line to the tee, as opposed a perpendicular line to the mowing.

Two other par 5s on the course have some right to left slope in the fairways, #5 & #11, but not as sharp as #18. I've no clue abot the balls rolling through the fairways there, though.

I guess Flynn really was pretty confident in designing a hole with a strong cant in the fairway, with Lancaster, Cherry Hills, and Cascades already mentioned, and my first thoughts going towards Huntingdon Valley's 1st, 7th, and 10th holes.

Looking at an older map of Augusta this summer, I think that the % slope on that hole was around 15% too.

[Bill_McBride]

Only the perpetually soggy condition of the fairways at Olympic Lakeside makes their canted fairways playable!

Bill, that isn't the case (Jan-Feb excluded), and hasn't been the case for several years.

True, but you still couldn't call it fast and firm, could you?  Seems to me that balls hit to the center of the fourth fairway might run a long way off the fairway if that grass was links-tight.

"Perpetually soggy" should perhaps be replaced by "lush."   

[Mike_Young]

Tim,

Certainly the angle of attack into the extended DZ is a factor when canted fairways are present.

Adam,

I'm content to stick with my generality, based on a reasonable amount of playing experience.

I've yet to encounter many fairways with the pitch/slope of that on # 13 at ANGC.

And, I've never encountered a fairway with the pitch/slope found on # 13, with the ensuing presentation for the second shot into the green.

You got no idea of the cant on that hole until you play it left handed ....you either pull it to 14 tee or cut the hell out of it....

[Bill_McBride]

Bill McBride & Wwhitehead,

Are those ball in the rough a function of the cant in the fairway or narrowed fairways.

Think back to pre-irrigation golf.

Anyone who played Alpine prior to fairway irrigation knows that placing your tee shot was a critical element in playing the golf course.

You had to hit toward the high side rough in order to keep the ball in the fairway, but, you knew that unless observation and experience aren't your strong suits.

Have narrowed fairway widths influenced the degree of fairway slope in the DZ ?  

Examples at Olympic - which I have only played once - are #4 and #17.  I would estimate each fairway was 40-45 yards wide, so I think it's more a function of cant than lack of width.

[Mike Cirba]

Acceptable? 

As in "I can hit this fairway, I can hit this fairway, I can hit this fairway....oops...guess I can't hit this fairway"? 

[Tom_Doak]

I guess Flynn really was pretty confident in designing a hole with a strong cant in the fairway, with Lancaster, Cherry Hills, and Cascades already mentioned, and my first thoughts going towards Huntingdon Valley's 1st, 7th, and 10th holes.

Those front nine holes at Huntingdon Valley are so steep I thought they were designed by Richard Petty.

[Mike_Young]

Tom,
With the new technology out there....do you think Richard Petty would be designing his tracks with more cant than Fireball Roberts?  Or do you think it would be a much better test to leave it as it was...now that we have better tires, even with faster speeds?  I certainly would require a better driver....or maybe they should go back to the old tires
I say leave it as it was and use the new safety equipment...

AND totally OT....I would wager that the luge course is reworked before the olympics begins.....tragic and sad but at the same time amazing that the post were so close...

[Kevin_Reilly]

True, but you still couldn't call it fast and firm, could you?  Seems to me that balls hit to the center of the fourth fairway might run a long way off the fairway if that grass was links-tight.

"Perpetually soggy" should perhaps be replaced by "lush."   

Not links tight, but generally firmer and faster than another course near by...one that gets a lot less play.  So that gives some perspective.  I don't know when you last played out there, but a lot of work has gone into fairway conditions over the last several years (helped in large part by the tree mgmt).

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat: So the cant to the fairway on #13 for most players is a challenge but not that imposing since they are playing a layup.
I wouldn't say that since the layup area is no picnic to hit.

Most golfers aren't driving it where the PGA Tour players drive it, and the differential on that hole between Member's and Masters tees isn't that great.

Most golfers wont position their drive to the steeply sloped section of the fairway, but, their second shots can come to rest in those areas.

With your feet above you and a steeply sloping high right to low left landing zone with a creek at its foot as your target area on your lay up, it's no easy shot, and it can leave the golfer with a very, very difficult third shot into the green, which slopes in the opposite direction, with a creek bordering the entire right side of the green.

I haven't had the privilege of playing ANGC but am I wrong in assuming that nearly all of those playing from the member tees are laying up for their second shot at #13?

See my response above.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
With the new technology out there....do you think Richard Petty would be designing his tracks with more cant than Fireball Roberts?"


MikeyY:

Speaking of----tomorrow is the Daytona 500!! 

Fireball was one of the early ones who perfected the draft, slingshotting etc and back then the tire technology sure wasn't up to snuff with those big air-gulping 8s. Either was the safety technology. They did have fireproof suits and such towards the end of Fireball's career but he once told me he would never wear one because they gave him a rash.

I would love to see that big, lanky old greaseball back in there tomorrow putting a 12 inch 220mph draft on Danica Patrick's ass!!   

[Bill_McBride]

True, but you still couldn't call it fast and firm, could you?  Seems to me that balls hit to the center of the fourth fairway might run a long way off the fairway if that grass was links-tight.

"Perpetually soggy" should perhaps be replaced by "lush."   

Not links tight, but generally firmer and faster than another course near by...one that gets a lot less play.  So that gives some perspective.  I don't know when you last played out there, but a lot of work has gone into fairway conditions over the last several years (helped in large part by the tree mgmt).

The only time I ever played was in December 2006 (?) with you and Benham and Pieracci, thanks again for a great day.

I'm just thinking if that 4th fairway, for example, was firmer you'd be playing every second shot from 40 yards farther away.

It was reasonably dry when we played, "soggy" was a misstatement.

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