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Patrick_Mucci

Acceptable fairway cants
« on: February 12, 2010, 06:18:35 PM »
The advertisements for The Masters got me thinking about the 13th hole.

In particular, the fairway in the extended DZ on # 13.

Unfortunately, TV cameras seem to deprive the viewer of the true cross slope on that fairway.

The ball can be well above the golfer's feet, making the next shot extremely awkward.

Other fairways have significant cross slopes.

# 2, # 3, # 8, # 9, # 10, # 11, # 14 and # 18.

Hence, it's a redundant feature, but, repetition doesn't detract from the play of the course.

I doubt that those fairways would retain their slopes if the golf course was designed and built today.

The question is, on courses built today, what's an acceptable cross slope ?

And, how many would be acceptable ?

Part II,

In light of the steep slope on # 13, would a modern day course incorporate a water hazard fronting the green, or, would this be deemed unfair ?

Put another way, is quirk a feature of the past ?

 
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Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2010, 06:41:40 PM »
There are parts of a couple fairways at Wintonbury Hills that are pretty tilted.  Holes 1, 4, 5, 13, 14, and 15 will make for some tricky lies.  Still though, no fairway I've seen beats the 7th at the Cascades for tilt.  I don't think it's possible to have a fairway slant more than that and still permit a ball to stop in the fairway.
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Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2010, 06:51:38 PM »
Pat, As with most generalities there are exceptions. Your assumption that they would not be built today is inaccurate. If you'd like to make a trip, out here to the middle, I will show you a couple of courses with amazing cants. Both built within the last 6 years.
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2010, 06:57:25 PM »
Tim,

Certainly the angle of attack into the extended DZ is a factor when canted fairways are present.

Adam,

I'm content to stick with my generality, based on a reasonable amount of playing experience.

I've yet to encounter many fairways with the pitch/slope of that on # 13 at ANGC.

And, I've never encountered a fairway with the pitch/slope found on # 13, with the ensuing presentation for the second shot into the green.
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David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2010, 07:06:23 PM »
How about the slope on #17 at OC Lake course? #18 at Riviera?
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2010, 07:07:49 PM »
Patrick:

I will share with you the story of the first time (and only time) I read Mike Hurdzan's encyclopedic book on golf course design.

There was one chapter devoted to routing the golf course, using a case study of a Hurdzan course in Kansas, and describing a step-by-step approach.  The first few steps, it sounded like he did it exactly the same way I did ... his first hole was a par-4 playing out along a ridge, with a pretty good cross-slope to it.

Then I got to step 7 or 8, and it said something like this:

"Since the maximum permissible cross-slope in a fairway is 4 per cent, the computer re-graded the fairway landing area."  And because the cross-slope started way out to the right of the hole, he wound up making a 15-foot cut and fill, on a hole which I was thinking you could leave alone!

Now, I'm sure Jeff Brauer will come on here shortly and tell you that because people mow fairways tighter nowadays, you just can't have significant tilts in fairways.  I am not sure if he and Dr. Hurdzan have ever been to Augusta or Merion or not; I'm only sure that Jeff has been to Crystal Downs, because he played it with me.  But apparently they do not believe their eyes when they play these courses.  Or perhaps they just think they are not going to make silly mistakes like the 13th at Augusta.
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Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2010, 07:22:19 PM »
Merion 12
Lancaster 2
Stonewall 4
All have really significant cants that make short approaches far more difficult than they would be otherwise.  They also really place tremendous pressure on the tee shot because the effective fairway widths, especially at Lancaster and Stonewall, are so narrow in the landing areas.
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J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2010, 07:59:28 PM »
Rory,    I recall a very acceptable cant on the inside of the dogleg on  #5 at Lancaster-  I thought it helped our tee balls run out a bit towards the green- great second shot from the hilltop. As an aside , looks like you guys have had a Winter to forget .  :(
                                                                              Wish you well,  Jack
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Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2010, 08:08:50 PM »
George Freeman's awesome photo tour of this bad ass (and modern) place looks to have it going on ...

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40452.msg850816/
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Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2010, 08:14:36 PM »
Jack

I like to complain about the weather but not to anyone from Chicago!
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Rob Rigg

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Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2010, 08:21:58 PM »
Quote from: Eric Smith on February 12, 2010, 08:08:50 PM
George Freeman's awesome photo tour of this bad ass (and modern) place looks to have it going on ...

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40452.msg850816/

Mike's "level" and/or "computer program" must have been broken when he designed Greywalls.

That looks like a ton of fun - great link Eric.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2010, 09:04:01 PM »
Quote from: David_Tepper on February 12, 2010, 07:06:23 PM

How about the slope on #17 at OC Lake course? #18 at Riviera?

David,  Neither compare to the slope on # 13 at ANGC

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Carl Rogers

Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2010, 09:10:48 PM »
What is the cant on the 18th hole at Cherry Hills?

Haven't there been US Opens when no tee shot could hold the fairway ... they just kept rolling until they hit the rough?
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2010, 09:15:44 PM »
Quote from: Carl Rogers on February 12, 2010, 09:10:48 PM
What is the cant on the 18th hole at Cherry Hills?

Haven't there been US Opens when no tee shot could hold the fairway ... they just kept rolling until they hit the rough?


That typically depends on ball flight.

A hook or draw, especially low, is going to run left into the rough.

It's doubtful that a straight or faded/sliced ball will leave the fairway when not hit to the edge.
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Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2010, 09:16:20 PM »
Quote from: Tim Gavrich on February 12, 2010, 06:41:40 PM
Still though, no fairway I've seen beats the 7th at the Cascades for tilt.  I don't think it's possible to have a fairway slant more than that and still permit a ball to stop in the fairway.

I watched three consecutive tee shots (including mine) land in the left rough, only to end up in the right rough, on the seventh hole a few years ago.  Under dry conditions, I'm not sure it's possible to hold the fairway without hitting a massive draw up the hill.

WW
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JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2010, 09:18:14 PM »
Tom Doak,

What percent would you say the 1st fairway at Belvedere is?
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I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Anthony Gray

Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2010, 09:47:38 PM »


  Lookout Mountain comes to mind.

  Anthony

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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2010, 09:51:16 PM »
Only the perpetually soggy condition of the fairways at Olympic Lakeside makes their canted fairways playable!
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Patrick Hodgdon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2010, 09:58:40 PM »
How about the cant on #3 at Oakmont? Or do only the pros drive it that far? I only know of it from Tiger Woods 2010  ;D
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2010, 09:59:55 PM »
Bill McBride & Wwhitehead,

Are those ball in the rough a function of the cant in the fairway or narrowed fairways.

Think back to pre-irrigation golf.

Anyone who played Alpine prior to fairway irrigation knows that placing your tee shot was a critical element in playing the golf course.

You had to hit toward the high side rough in order to keep the ball in the fairway, but, you knew that unless observation and experience aren't your strong suits.

Have narrowed fairway widths influenced the degree of fairway slope in the DZ ?  
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Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2010, 10:01:59 PM »
Quote from: Bill_McBride on February 12, 2010, 09:51:16 PM
Only the perpetually soggy condition of the fairways at Olympic Lakeside makes their canted fairways playable!

Bill, that isn't the case (Jan-Feb excluded), and hasn't been the case for several years.
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Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2010, 10:55:15 PM »
Patrick: Are you making the assumption that the second shot at #13 is going to be an attempt to reach the green - is it not a par 5 - is it not a relatively short par 5 - would the shot be too easy for the top players if the lie was flat?
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2010, 11:29:31 PM »
Quote from: Jerry Kluger on February 12, 2010, 10:55:15 PM

Patrick: Are you making the assumption that the second shot at #13 is going to be an attempt to reach the green - is it not a par 5 - is it not a relatively short par 5 - would the shot be too easy for the top players if the lie was flat?


Jerry,  The top players play two to four competitive rounds a year on ANGC, the members and guests play the balance of the season.

Looking at # 13 in the sole context of the PGA Tour golfer is a MAJOR mistake.
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Philippe Binette

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Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2010, 08:45:01 AM »
the olympic club...  ;D
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Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Acceptable fairway cants
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2010, 11:12:05 AM »
Pat: So the cant to the fairway on #13 for most players is a challenge but not that imposing since they are playing a layup. I haven't had the privilege of playing ANGC but am I wrong in assuming that nearly all of those playing from the member tees are laying up for their second shot at #13?
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