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jeffwarne

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Re: Ted Dexter's Ten Commandments on how to speed up play
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2010, 08:52:15 PM »
Hmmm....

Weird.  If I play in a foursome we get around in about 4 hours...maybe 4.5 hours. 

And you have the stats on my playing as a twosome or by myself...and I always get priority if I want to be first off the tee due to my "quick" play.

But you guys are saying I am slow.

Interesting.  I see if there are areas where I can pick it up.

Mac,
No reason to pick it up as a single or two ball-where  you going?
Sorry to pick on you it was too tempting. ;D  From what you've told us about your past physical condition, it's a tribute to you that you walk.

My point was more that the bigger complainers I get are usually trying to run around as singles and two balls and always complain about the "slow" foursome in front of them, but when they are in foursomes, they can't maintain the flow of the course (but it's never them, it's always the other guys as they're always quick to point out to me how quick they usually are.)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mac Plumart

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Re: Ted Dexter's Ten Commandments on how to speed up play
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2010, 08:57:56 PM »
Jeff...

First off thanks...

Secondly, your last few comments absolutley nails a friend of mine.  Funny!

Also, you bring up a good point.  When playing as a twosome or by myself...I usually catch the groups in front and get slowed down a bit...but it doesn't bother me.  Usually if they ask me/us if we want to play through, my response is "thanks, but no thanks...have fun...enjoy your round...and don't worry about me/us"...unless of course they are really slow.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mark Molyneux

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Re: Ted Dexter's Ten Commandments on how to speed up play
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2010, 10:07:40 PM »
I tend to approve of Mr. Dexter's suggestions but I regard the "friendly round" as practice and I have to admit that most of my "practice" occurs on the range (and on the carpet in front of my TV). I think if the game is golf and it's an official round, rules have to be respected. Having said that, I think everybody ought to play a regulation, official round by themselves sometime and if the clock shows a 4 hour round, then they need to consider what they could have done to speed up their play. As an unobstructed single, walking and carrying, at age 60, I expect to be sipping a beer in the grille room 3 hours and 20 minutes after I tee it up at #1... 3:25 if I have to change my shirt and shoes. A lot has to do with the culture of the club. If the clearly stated expectation is that rounds will conclude in 4:15, then most days, the rounds will conclude in 4:15 or less. If players are coddled, even encouraged to savor the country club experience for a day and no time expectation is explicit, then the pace of play will be substantially higher for some folks and it only takes the guys in front of me at 4:45 to make my round approach 4:45. I play with all levels of partners. I try to keep "lessons" to a minimum because "lessons" slow down play and "lessons" (e.g. "Here's another ball. Move your hands forward this time and lower your front shoulder...") never seem to help anybody in the context of a round. However, one lesson that I will not skip involves discretely telling a partner how they can be more efficient as they move around the golf course.

Here are some of the things that I've shared:
Before putting, place your kit between the cup and the next tee. Never leave equipment in a position where you have to walk back toward the following group to retrieve it after play on a hole concludes.
Wave people up on a par three, especially a long par three.
Do not wait in a cart (or just standing there) while another player prepares to hit, if you have not already located your ball and begun your own preparation.
Play the tees that suit your level of skill.
Use a range finder if you have one and if it's permiitted under the rules but don't use it for every shot. If the sprinkler head says 57 yards and it looks like it's 57 yards, you needn't bother to see if it might be 61.
PGA tour pros aren't necessarily great models on pace of play, unless it's John Daly and he's +12 on Day 2.

Here's some advice that I'd offer course operators (if they'd listen):
Space tee times at least 10 minutes apart. If you're too dumb to understand why and you insist on 8 minute slots, don't send out marshals to whip the herd, it only makes them passive-aggressive.
Unless it's the U.S. Open Championship, four and a half inch rough is overkill.
Play patches of tall fescue as hazards.
I can tolerate carts but cart-path-only really rankles me. Admit it, the course is a mess and you just want the money.
Early holes (1, 2, 3, 4) playing directly east into a rising sun cause your first groups of the day to lose golf balls. While they search, the whole day's pace can be affected. As go the initial groups, so goes the day.
Late holes (16, 17, 18) playing directly west into the setting sun cause your last groups to slow for reasons similar to those noted above. I can't tell you how many 16 hole rounds I've endured while listening to the guys ahead debate whether it "... looked like it was headed right" or it "... looked like it was headed left".

Bruce Katona

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Re: Ted Dexter's Ten Commandments on how to speed up play
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2010, 11:55:19 PM »
Someone wrote earlier.." The average UK player gets around in 3 hrs 15 min on the weekend & has no idea what the fianl socre is....why match play......he/she who wins the most holes wins.   If you're out of a hole you pick up and go to the next tee - no grinding over a 3' putt for double.

Why not at the next GCS event try to play one round under Ted Baxter rules?  The group can eliminate that round for any net stroke play cumulative competition. My $0.02 on what the result of that 18 hole Beta test would result in - quite a bit of fun, a very fast round and a faster retiring to the 19th hole to settle up bets and brag.

Scott Warren

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Re: Ted Dexter's Ten Commandments on how to speed up play
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2010, 02:10:16 AM »
There is undeniably a pace of play problem.Everyone has their own solution.However,everyone(myself included) sees the solution only through the prism of their immediate surroundings--"my guys want to move along quickly while we shoot our 88's" vs. "my guys want to play by all the rules because it matters to us whether we shoot 72 or 73".These 2 sides will never reach accord.

What about the guy who wants to shoot his 72, playing by the rules, in 3-4hrs at an enjoyable pace?

Believe it or not, there is a continent full of them!
I have taken mulligans on the first tee... I never play preferred lie under any circumstances, it's not golf.

And gifting yourself a free do over on the 1st tee is?

No it is not. But I have done it, isn't that what you were asking?

My point, which may have appeared combative, is that we should just live and let live. Some people take mulligans, some turn the ball over, some play gimmes... it's all still golf, but I don't see how someone who does one of those things can criticise a guy who does another.

Dale Jackson

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Re: Ted Dexter's Ten Commandments on how to speed up play
« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2010, 02:43:35 AM »
"Scott - Yes The Ted Dexter, he also won The Presidents Putter.

Dale/Jed - Dexter was a great all round sportsman being an England cricketer and very fine Amateur golfer back in the days when sportsmen were gentlemen. Your assertion is rather insulting. In a friendly game rules can be ammended, non-competition means just that."

Mark, being from across the pond, I do not know who the gentlemen who wrote these "suggestions" is.  But I try not to personally insult anybody and I was not doing so here.  But I do believe in adhering to the rules of golf and the last 3 of the 10 "commandments" are not in keeping with the rules of golf. 

Those rules have been crafted carefully by men of acumen and wisdom for over 250 years, and we ignore and circumvent those rules at our own peril.

I know a little about cricket, enough to know it is an honourable game played by gentlemen, for the most part.  I accept that Dexter was a great sportsman, but that does not mean I accept his suggestions without reservation.

I look forward to continuing this discussion when we meet in September!
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

Sean_A

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Re: Ted Dexter's Ten Commandments on how to speed up play
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2010, 03:08:30 AM »
We all have to remember that to each is own.  There has to be a certain range of acceptability for the speed of play.  A great many people do not like being marched around a course - myself included.  If a 4ball is getting round a course in 3:15, that is too quick for me, but I would suggest that it is a rarity.  To me, depending on the course, anything under 4 hours is fine for a 4ball, but I can understand the trepidation of some when they see the average time of a game creeping up and up.  To me, the bottom line is if folks want to play fast (meaning less than 3:15), they need to join the right club (perhaps a 2ball club or one that gives special standing to 2balls at certain times) and/or get out first in the morning as a 2ball or foursomes.  Folks ain't gonna get a lot of sympathy from me if they want me to play faster 3:45 as a 4ball round a reasonably tough track.  Even the the fairly easy and short track is gonna take 3:20 or 3:30 for a group moving along decently, but not rushing.  I can say that at Burnham, we play 3ball a lot and my goal is 3:30 if playing with members.  Playing with guests is a different matter.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Ted Dexter's Ten Commandments on how to speed up play
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2010, 04:39:44 AM »
Mike - cricket isn't an Olympic sport as it's only played by a few countries, baseball however.............

Scott - that is why you were deported 10 000 miles!

It is horses for courses, if you want to amble go to a club where long rounds are the norm. At Deal we are lucky we have a traditional design, most tees of the day are within 30 yards of the previous green which saves a massive amount of time. 3 hours for foursome, 3.10 for two ball with a stop in the hut is a steady pace, absolutely not a gallop.

Only a small percentage of UK courses are two ball, however thinks the average UK round is 3.15 at a weekend is dreaming. The average UK club is a four ball amble pretending to be a tour players.

Sean - I take it you do not get frustrated sitting behind a guy doing 40 in a 60 'cos it's his right to drive slowly and let everyone else behind him wait and get annoyed.
Cave Nil Vino

Mike Sweeney

Re: Ted Dexter's Ten Commandments on how to speed up play
« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2010, 06:19:45 AM »

Those rules have been crafted carefully by men of acumen and wisdom for over 250 years, and we ignore and circumvent those rules at our own peril.


Okay it is a Sunday morning many years ago at Enniscrone GC. There is a Sunday morning stroke competition for the members where everyone throws in 5p or similar into a pot. Now I am playing the 16th hole which bends around the corner. I hit a shot that I lose sight of around the corner and it looks okay. As Sean Arble can attest, it gets thick in spots at Enniscrone. I get up there and can't find it. Now there is a group behind us and they can't see me.



Thus, under the rules of golf I have to walk back into the group behind us, probably have to let them play through and hold up my group to complete the hole. As the American International Member, I would have been very popular that day holding up the Irish from the morning Guiness just 2 holes away!

Thus, I withdrew from the competition and played out the round. Nobody complained or encouraged me to walk back and replay my shot.

IMO, the Ted Dexter rules are appropriate for such a friendly competition.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 06:26:11 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Ted Dexter's Ten Commandments on how to speed up play
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2010, 08:49:04 AM »
Its great, here is Ted posting on another site trying to suggest ways of speeding up the game and what are we doing on GCA.com. No real serious debate just the usual load of crap from the usual bunch. Thank God we do have some Members that care

Good for you Ted, may not agree will any or all but thanks for thinking and putting you opinions and suggestion on paper for others to consider. That’s more than 50 % of the Members of GCA.com bother doing.

You have to think to generate an opinion, its just so much easier trying to demolish thoughts of others when you cannot generate any for yourselves. The easy option is alive and well.

Melvyn

« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 01:26:35 PM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Will MacEwen

Re: Ted Dexter's Ten Commandments on how to speed up play
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2010, 09:55:45 AM »
--
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 10:04:11 AM by Will MacEwen »

George Pazin

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Re: Ted Dexter's Ten Commandments on how to speed up play
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2010, 12:27:52 PM »
Mssrs. Bayley,Pearce,and Pazin--if you can carry your own sack in a 4-some on a non-empty golf course and shoot a high score in under 4 hours while playing by the rules,you are exceptions to the rule.

Mr. Pazin,I admit that I have frequently lumped all high scorers in a group as slow players.I am/was wrong for doing so and apologize.I shouldn't paint with such a broad brush.

However,some on this board frequently castigate those for whom a score is important--a score earned by holing putts,dropping correctly,etc.They aren't the problem either.

Like I said earlier,it's all about how,and frequently when, you were taught to play.

Nice post, I was kinda ticked off at myself last night for overreacting to your earlier post, so I apologize as well.

I'll simply say there are fast players and slow players, good players and bad players - I haven't seen much of a correlation between the four sets.

is that slow?

i played nine last week walking and it took 1.5 hours.

i played nine after work this week and it took 1 hour 45 minutes.

i played 18 walking with a friend of mine a few weeks ago and it took 3 hourse 45 minutes.

too slow?

Kinda depends, to me. Was there anyone behind you? In front of you? I don't care if someone plays at a 6 hour pace, if there is no one behind them. It's the waiting that drives me crazy.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom Birkert

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Re: Ted Dexter's Ten Commandments on how to speed up play
« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2010, 12:44:45 PM »
I assume this is the Ted Dexter's rules - the man Gary Player said had the best English swing since Henry Cotton. Dexter was a great cricketer and a Sunningdale member.
I was amazed at how quickly they all claimed to play there until I went out with a match one day and realized that no one putts from inside 3 feet.That speeds things up no end.

We often give putts during the early part of the round, means your opponent doesn't get in rhythm making short putts which means the nasty 3 footer on 17 suddenly becomes more difficult than it otherwise would be!

And of course, Spring and Autumn meetings aside, most club competitions are match play.

Sean Leary

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Re: Ted Dexter's Ten Commandments on how to speed up play
« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2010, 12:56:34 PM »
Thou shalt try to shave 10 seconds off the time it normally takes you to hit a shot. (If all players in an average four-ball were to achieve this, they would cut one hour from their usual round).

Bing, Bing, Bing!!  We have a winner.  

My only questions is:  if everybody did this, what the hell do you need the other 9 "rules" for?

Jud, you're fairly new here, so you've probably never had the privilege of reading my pre-shot seance - oops, I mean "routine" - rant.  Needless to say, it's #2 in zeal with me, only behind the cheater line rant.

The pre-shot routine is the primary cause of slow play.  And Dexter is right.  I've typed this math too many times to count.   4 guys X 80 shots per round (360) X 10 seconds wasted per guy on stupid, unnecessary pre-shot routine nonsense they read in a Rotella book = 3600 seconds = exactly one hour of completely wasted time is buried into almost every round of golf.

Honestly, not every shot takes 10 seconds longer than it needs to due to unnecessary, Tour-worshipping pre-shot huffing, puffing, breathing, sachaying, prancing, swinging, re-swinging, waggling, re-waggling, looking, re-looking, etc.  Nobody has a pre-shot routine for a tap-in, for example.  So it's not really 3600 seconds wasted.  Maybe it's 3000.  That's still 50 minutes....

So let's assume that the typical round is 4.5 hours and we want to get it down to 3.5 hours.  Any way you slice it, the pre-shot routine is the single biggest contributor to slow play by far. 


I agree with Shiv, unless you make up that time elsewhere. I am one of the  fastest players I know overall, but am way too slow over the ball with the Sergio waggles, especially with the driver. But I am really quick everywhere else, especially on the green.


Sean_A

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Re: Ted Dexter's Ten Commandments on how to speed up play
« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2010, 01:22:04 PM »
Mike - cricket isn't an Olympic sport as it's only played by a few countries, baseball however.............

Scott - that is why you were deported 10 000 miles!

It is horses for courses, if you want to amble go to a club where long rounds are the norm. At Deal we are lucky we have a traditional design, most tees of the day are within 30 yards of the previous green which saves a massive amount of time. 3 hours for foursome, 3.10 for two ball with a stop in the hut is a steady pace, absolutely not a gallop.

Only a small percentage of UK courses are two ball, however thinks the average UK round is 3.15 at a weekend is dreaming. The average UK club is a four ball amble pretending to be a tour players.

Sean - I take it you do not get frustrated sitting behind a guy doing 40 in a 60 'cos it's his right to drive slowly and let everyone else behind him wait and get annoyed.

Chappers

I am not sure what you mean.  If it is that I need to play in three hours as 4ball, I am afraid that pace just doesn't suit me.  That doesn't mean some won't do it, but I would suggest this to be very, very rare.  That said, once I hit 4ish hours I have had enough of golf and want off the course.  So my comfort range is 3.5 to 4 hours for a 4ball.  Is that a problem?  LIke I say, if there is a group of guys that want to fly around course, just as driving on the roads, play/drive at a time when the course/roads are empty.  I don't want to hear any bitching about finishing in 3:30 especially on fairly tough course. 

The Sweeney

At best, unless you are in a position to possibly win, you will get a response like, "its up to you mate".  No, not terribly encouraging, but the way it should be.  Lets face it, these comps aren't important. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jud_T

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Re: Ted Dexter's Ten Commandments on how to speed up play
« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2010, 02:07:47 PM »
Shiv,

I'm with you on this.  One of my best friends is the worst offender you can imagine.  Great guy and could be a pretty good player if he put the time in.  He will stroll down the fairway and only when he's over his ball and it's his turn will he begin a lengthy deliberation with his caddy or partner over what club to hit, double check the yardage and wind, followed by the inevitable 3 practice swings before he actually plays.  Mind you, this is one of my best friends in the world, but it's gotten to the point where I'd rather not play with him because of this...
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 07:07:35 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Scott Warren

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Re: Ted Dexter's Ten Commandments on how to speed up play
« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2010, 02:12:39 PM »
Does he read GCA? You might not have to worry about worry about that if he does ;D

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ted Dexter's Ten Commandments on how to speed up play
« Reply #67 on: February 13, 2010, 02:39:37 PM »
No, but it's gotten to the point that reading this could only be a good thing.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Matt_Ward

Re: Ted Dexter's Ten Commandments on how to speed up play
« Reply #68 on: February 13, 2010, 04:05:31 PM »
Jud:

With all due respect -- all the commandmants are fine but the key to having consistent speed up of play starts and ends with the efforts applied by couirse management.

Most management groups are only in a hurry to speed up the processing of your credit card when you come to the cash register -- after that it's everyone on their own.

The other factor is that management now routinely brings the clubhouse to the course with all the goodies and other food / drink items to purchase. The game is not THE GAME anymore for most people - it's primarily a social circus so that everyone can see one another. Sad to say management has brought these elements to the forefront and most people don't complain about them.

JMEvensky

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Re: Ted Dexter's Ten Commandments on how to speed up play
« Reply #69 on: February 13, 2010, 04:29:07 PM »


The other factor is that management now routinely brings the clubhouse to the course with all the goodies and other food / drink items to purchase. The game is not THE GAME anymore for most people - it's primarily a social circus so that everyone can see one another. Sad to say management has brought these elements to the forefront and most people don't complain about them.


That's a very valid point and it's just as likely to happen at privates as publics.

When the clubs themselves,directed by their Boards,choose to make golf a 4 hour sales opportunity,the game suffers,IMO.

Mark Pearce

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Re: Ted Dexter's Ten Commandments on how to speed up play
« Reply #70 on: February 13, 2010, 05:12:50 PM »
Mssrs. Bayley,Pearce,and Pazin--if you can carry your own sack in a 4-some on a non-empty golf course and shoot a high score in under 4 hours while playing by the rules,you are exceptions to the rule.

Mr. Pazin,I admit that I have frequently lumped all high scorers in a group as slow players.I am/was wrong for doing so and apologize.I shouldn't paint with such a broad brush.

However,some on this board frequently castigate those for whom a score is important--a score earned by holing putts,dropping correctly,etc.They aren't the problem either.

Like I said earlier,it's all about how,and frequently when, you were taught to play.
Mr Evensky,

I have shot under 80 and over 100 in a four ball, in competition and in less than 4 hours.  I play early in the morning (but not first out) in competitions at my club.  If we take 4 hours then we're going to hear about it in the bar afterwards, so we don't.  I'm no exception to the rule here, but I understand things are different where you are.  I have the better side of that bargain.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

john_stiles

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Re: Ted Dexter's Ten Commandments on how to speed up play
« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2010, 10:48:58 PM »

One way we shave time, especially like on a cold winters day and temperature around 32 with a breeze,  is to not mark your ball.

You walk up, clean any mud or dirt, and put the ball back down.  Then when it your turn comes,  you just step up and putt.  Most people cannot simply put the ball back down, and not avoid standing behind the ball one last time to see the line.

There are a few extreme cases where you must mark but not often.   This can shorten times for a foursome's putting quite a bit.

It seems to be quite common overseas even in summer.

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