[Geoff_Shackelford]

Has anyone ever seen Dr. MacKenzie's purported charting of hole locations for the Old Course?

I recall Tom Doak writing that it is still used today for some events, or it was the inspiration for a system in place. Does anyone anything else about this?

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Geoff, I do not know but wanted to keep this alive for I am interested. lol

[Matthew Mollica]

Hi Geoff,

I think I saw something at the museum next to the R&A clubhouse (mid 2002), regarding MacKenzies hole location chart....

I'm almost certain that the club has the original, and that it hasn't been copied...

Sorry I couldn't help more. Hope we get an answer soon...

Interesting topic.

Matthew

[ForkaB]

If and when such a document surfaces it would be very interesting to compare it to the relatively small number of hole locations which are still in use for Championship play.  

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Thanks for the leads, that would be wonderful if they have something on display. Naturally, it would be fun to read his rationale for various hole location. As far as I can tell, this "plan" is one of the first calculated attempts at course setup.

It seems architects used to consulted on tournament course setup, in particular hole locations.  MacKenzie took some heat for hole locations he set at Cypress Point for the Cal. Amateur (he wrote a letter defending his work) and George Thomas setup LACC-North for the first LA Open there.

[Neil_Crafter]

Another old thread I've dug up. Anybody have any clues about this  some 7 years on?

I'll be at St Andrews in March so might ask a question or two.

[James Boon]

Neil,

In Scott Machperson's book on the Evolution of the Old Course, there are maps comparing "1937 traditional hole location", with that of the 2000 and 2005 Opens. I dont recall MacKenzie being mentioned though?

Cheers,

James

[Tom_Doak]

I have never actually seen a document.  I was told by a couple of R & A members that MacKenzie had helped to formalize some of the championship hole locations, but this could just be hearsay.  For sure, they've been playing championships there since well before MacKenzie's time.

And for sure, at this point, they're familiar enough with the course that they don't go back and look at the document, any more than I get out my plans in the middle of constructing a course.

If it isn't in Scott M's book, then it probably doesn't exist.

[Tom_Doak]

Now that I think of it, I've never done a chart like that for one of my own courses, either.  I've always been afraid it would wind up being misused somehow ... for instance, you say there's a location five yards from the back edge of #11 green, but then #11 green shrinks so your five-yard distance winds up on a 6% slope.  And they put the hole there and say that's where the architect wanted it!

I'd rather just trust the superintendent, and pray to God that he takes the job seriously.

Mike Keiser did ask me to do a hole location chart for Old Macdonald.  But, he wanted it so he could make lots of the coolest hole locations off-limits for daily use!  So I have yet to finish it.

[Neil_Crafter]

Thanks Tom
If such a thing exists I would assume that Scott would have dug it up when researching his book on TOC.
And I've never done such a chart either for any of my courses.

[Pat Burke]

Now that I think of it, I've never done a chart like that for one of my own courses, either.  I've always been afraid it would wind up being misused somehow ... for instance, you say there's a location five yards from the back edge of #11 green, but then #11 green shrinks so your five-yard distance winds up on a 6% slope.  And they put the hole there and say that's where the architect wanted it!

I'd rather just trust the superintendent, and pray to God that he takes the job seriously.

Mike Keiser did ask me to do a hole location chart for Old Macdonald.  But, he wanted it so he could make lots of the coolest hole locations off-limits for daily use!  So I have yet to finish it.

Tom, it was amazing to me that over a 7 year period, my original yardage books that I saved would sometimes be at least 1 or 2 yards different (usually smaller) due to sloppy mowing patterns.  Do you make green "charts' with measurements so the superintendent has a hard number for fringe to slopes, front, back?  Amazing how far a green center creeps!  Original plan are obviously around, but something as simple a a green chart like my yardage books are prretty simple, and as a former greens mower, simple is awesome

[Tom_Doak]

Pat:

Some guys bury a wire around the edge of a USGA green so you can take a metal detector and see if the edge is creeping.

The first course to build nine USGA greens at one time was Crooked Stick.  I was there in 1986 when they were tearing it up to redo the greens, and on one green [I think it was #5], we could not find the plastic barrier at the front or back edge.  We kept digging and digging until we found it ... the original front of the green had been a false front ten yards further down the hill ... and the back edge had been mowed out three or four paces off the back of the mix.

[Scott Macpherson]

HI Guys,

I don't believe I ever found a plan showing the hole locations, but I did find a document in which the R&A wrote a written description of the medal hole locations to Sir Guy Campbell in 1937. I turned this document into a series of small plans for each hole in my book (p177-179). Did Mackenzie have any input on this letter? Did the R&A ask him for his input? Unlikely because he died in 1934. But he could have advised the R&A in 1924 (when he completed his now famous plan) where the best hole locations may have been for the 1927 Open Championship, and the R&A shared these locations with G.Campbell in 1937. I would be speculating however.

I am not anywhere near my research notes, but when I next am, I will take another look and see if I can find any mention of MacKenzie's name.

scott

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