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Geoffrey_Walsh

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The world's best 1800 yd. course*
« on: February 23, 2010, 10:49:03 PM »
I found this interesting quote from the Director of Golf at the Balsams Resort when I was doing research on my New England golf trip:

"But I've always said you can take the last 100 yards of each hole and you'd have a great 1,800-yard golf course," says Ruttle. "That's what this golf course is about, hitting the approach and figuring out the greens."

Taking the last 100 yds of each hole, what are the world's best 1800 yd. courses?  It makes you think about variety of holes in a very different way if you are just focusing on the approach and green complexes.

PV certainly shows it greatness here as would Yale and Merion.  However, I'd like to focus on sleepers that may get overlooked mostly due to length... Cape Arundel and Essex County Club (MA) immediately jump to mind as a blast to play from that distance.  The Plantation Course is another.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 10:52:01 PM by Geoffrey_Walsh »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The world's best 1800 yd. course*
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2010, 10:52:10 PM »
Never quite thought of the subject this way before.

That said, I've already got my winner -- The Old Course at St. Andrews.  Think through those 18 holes from the 100-yard mark and tell me there is a course with more variety.

Alex Miller

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Re: The world's best 1800 yd. course*
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2010, 10:53:22 PM »
TOC done deal.


And way to beat me to the punch Tom.  >:(

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re: The world's best 1800 yd. course*
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2010, 11:11:45 PM »
Tom/Alex,

I figured TOC would rise to the top on a number of lists.  I haven't played it myself, but it has always been held up as the gold standard for variety in and around the greens.

I like this method of looking at courses because it eliminates most of the noise created by additional distance/flashy hazards and forces you to compare courses on an "apple to apple" basis.  I'd also make the argument the majority of shots are played within this distance and it becomes even more important to those learning the game (our future) and those who can't carry long distances (a good portion of the playing public).

Phil_the_Author

Re: The world's best 1800 yd. course*
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2010, 05:03:56 AM »
I can't decide between two courses. Can you imagine playing into Augusta's greens from 100 yards out? There would be severe elevation changes on several of the holes (imagine 9 & 10) and it would take PERFECT ball-striking to be able to control the shots intio them.

Yet I think that I would choose Shinnecock, especially on a day where there is even just a little wind and the turf is firm and fast. Every possible shot imaginable would be there for the player to choose from and yet every one of them would be fraught with challenge and great reward. That would be a fun afternoon...

jeffwarne

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Re: The world's best 1800 yd. course*
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2010, 08:12:29 AM »
I can't decide between two courses. Can you imagine playing into Augusta's greens from 100 yards out? There would be severe elevation changes on several of the holes (imagine 9 & 10) and it would take PERFECT ball-striking to be able to control the shots intio them.

Yet I think that I would choose Shinnecock, especially on a day where there is even just a little wind and the turf is firm and fast. Every possible shot imaginable would be there for the player to choose from and yet every one of them would be fraught with challenge and great reward. That would be a fun afternoon...

Does it really change much from the top course list?

TOC, NGLA, ANGC,Oakmont, Merion, PV,Shinnecock


On a related note, I always get a kick out of watching players who lay up to 100 yards---and can't hit the shot!
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Gary Slatter

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Re: The world's best 1800 yd. course*
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2010, 08:19:38 AM »
I think the New or Eden are both good from 100 yards, as is the Old and Dove Mountain.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Troy Alderson

Re: The world's best 1800 yd. course*
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2010, 11:54:43 AM »
Hi Geoffrey,

I am not going to name a single golf course for you, instead I will say that "just about any golf course" is good from 100 yards in.  Not all, but most IMHO. 

I would change the quote by saying 150 yards in.  IMO, I believe that typical approach-shot zones for a par 4 and par 5 holes are 200 yards to 100 yards from the green for the average golfer.

So to change my mind and give you a golf course, my vote is for my current home course of Reames G&CC in Klamath Falls, OR.  Our front side has excellent green complexes that require good shot placement to stay below the hole.  TOC isn't too bad either.

Troy

Mike Cirba

Re: The world's best 1800 yd. course*
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2010, 12:02:21 PM »
Pinehurst has to be in this club.

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The world's best 1800 yd. course*
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2010, 01:44:42 PM »
Doesn't this discussion lead you to wonder why clubs and courses don't  put tees in at 100/150 on all holes?  Not only would it allow for short knockers and beginners a way to play without the intimidation of "the big course" but it would also speed up play.  They wouldn't have to be stand alone "Tees", just a flatish patch on the edge of the fairway, mowed as part of the fairway so no additional maintenance would be required.  I can even see "short course" league play at clubs during the week (especially where it gets HOT)
Coasting is a downhill process

Thomas McQuillan

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Re: The world's best 1800 yd. course*
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2010, 01:52:18 PM »
Although i have never played the course. I have a sneaking suspicion that Oakmont would be right up there due to its green sites.

Will MacEwen

Re: The world's best 1800 yd. course*
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2010, 02:00:11 PM »
Doesn't this discussion lead you to wonder why clubs and courses don't  put tees in at 100/150 on all holes?  Not only would it allow for short knockers and beginners a way to play without the intimidation of "the big course" but it would also speed up play.  They wouldn't have to be stand alone "Tees", just a flatish patch on the edge of the fairway, mowed as part of the fairway so no additional maintenance would be required.  I can even see "short course" league play at clubs during the week (especially where it gets HOT)

Some of the courses at Whistler do this for children - they just throw down some extra tee markers in the fairway.

jeffwarne

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Re: The world's best 1800 yd. course*
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2010, 02:10:04 PM »
Doesn't this discussion lead you to wonder why clubs and courses don't  put tees in at 100/150 on all holes?  Not only would it allow for short knockers and beginners a way to play without the intimidation of "the big course" but it would also speed up play.  They wouldn't have to be stand alone "Tees", just a flatish patch on the edge of the fairway, mowed as part of the fairway so no additional maintenance would be required.  I can even see "short course" league play at clubs during the week (especially where it gets HOT)

Some of the courses at Whistler do this for children - they just throw down some extra tee markers in the fairway.


Not a fan of this-everybody feels good cause it seems like a great idea.
Who wants to walk 250-400 from green to tee EVERY hole?
especially ayoung  kid with short legs for whom 300 yards feels like a mile! ;D ;D
Start 'em at the longest tee/fairway area they can make the fairway(there's a certain thrill to carrying reasonable rough to reach the fairway), let them learn to hit LOFTED fairway woods and just play a few less holes
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Michael Rossi

Re: The world's best 1800 yd. course*
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2010, 08:51:01 PM »
Doesn't this discussion lead you to wonder why clubs and courses don't  put tees in at 100/150 on all holes?  Not only would it allow for short knockers and beginners a way to play without the intimidation of "the big course" but it would also speed up play.  They wouldn't have to be stand alone "Tees", just a flatish patch on the edge of the fairway, mowed as part of the fairway so no additional maintenance would be required.  I can even see "short course" league play at clubs during the week (especially where it gets HOT)

Would make for long green to tee walks. :D

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The world's best 1800 yd. course*
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2010, 09:40:23 PM »
1st off, if they were walking, they would walk that same distance anyway, only stopping every 80 ids to hit another, demoralizing shot.
I can still remember evryone having to wait for me (the youngest).  I played some rounds with Mike Keiser and his then young son, we used to double par for him to keep him in the game.
2nd, most family golf entails a cart (as dispised as that is here) so who cares.  Sometimes I wonder if getting to drive the cart isn't the bigger draw for youngsters.
3rd, I don't see many seniors in their 70's and 80's walking these days, but I do see them giving up the game because it's just too long for them and they don't want to be shooting 150.
Coasting is a downhill process

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The world's best 1800 yd. course*
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2010, 10:31:20 PM »
1st off, if they were walking, they would walk that same distance anyway, only stopping every 80 ids to hit another, demoralizing shot.
I can still remember evryone having to wait for me (the youngest).  I played some rounds with Mike Keiser and his then young son, we used to double par for him to keep him in the game.
2nd, most family golf entails a cart (as dispised as that is here) so who cares.  Sometimes I wonder if getting to drive the cart isn't the bigger draw for youngsters.
3rd, I don't see many seniors in their 70's and 80's walking these days, but I do see them giving up the game because it's just too long for them and they don't want to be shooting 150.



Why is an 80 yard shot demoralizing to a child or anyone if they hit it solid? I love watching kids sprint to their next shot
If they're on the forward tee at say 320 yards, four 80 yarders gets them on or near the green,
Would you want to walk (or drive) 5 times the length of your drives after putting out on the last green?
So if you hit it 250, after putting out you'd walk (or drive) 1250 yards to the next tee.

putting a senior at the 150 marker isn't going to keep him in the game-talk about demoralizing and condescending.
the forward tees, or the beginning of the fairway on forced carries will do just fine.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The world's best 1800 yd. course*
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2010, 07:45:09 AM »
They exist they're jsut callled P&P and from what I can gather, like in most things, Ireland does it best. ;D

Next time you visit Lahinch be sure to play the best two I've seen, Liscannor and Doolin.  Both on authetic links land, no irrigtion (F&F assured) and greens tend to be in hollows or ledges on the side of a Dune about 600 ft square. At Doolin threre's an 85 yarder with an authentic sklyine green looking out over the atlantic.

So which is best guys?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055127354 
Let's make GCA grate again!

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: The world's best 1800 yd. course*
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2010, 09:03:17 AM »
So which is best guys?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055127354 

"Savage" - what a great word to describe a P&P course. Can you think of any savage golf courses?

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The world's best 1800 yd. course*
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2010, 09:14:45 AM »
Jeff, what do you base your assumptions upon?  I had a Jr. golf program that had over a 1,000 kids a yr (some as young as 4).  I offered up a suggestion based on years of experience and discussions with golf professionals all around the US at both public and private courses.  It wasn't my desire to get into a pissing match, so let's just agreethat we have different opinions on the matter.
Coasting is a downhill process

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The world's best 1800 yd. course*
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2010, 09:49:43 AM »
Jeff, what do you base your assumptions upon?  I had a Jr. golf program that had over a 1,000 kids a yr (some as young as 4).  I offered up a suggestion based on years of experience and discussions with golf professionals all around the US at both public and private courses.  It wasn't my desire to get into a pissing match, so let's just agreethat we have different opinions on the matter.

Tim,
Of course we can disagree.
I base my opinion on observations made from a simliar background running jr. programs, being strictly a teaching professial for 15 years and being a Head Golf professional for another 10.
I have built 18 hole mini courses for child and parent/child events,routinely put together smaller courses on target greens on ranges and done a variety of creative things to introduce smaller playing areas to the teaching enviroment.

I have occasionally done as you advocate with the 150 yard thing, but I do find that awkward in the absence of a cart.
To me it's the lazy way out as there are
plenty of ways to create shorter courses where players aren't skipping 80% of the total acreage.
Also I'd say most shots wasted by young players are near the greens so the extra two shots to get to the 150 aren't really all that slow-it's the deep bunkers/fescue /fast elevated greens that run the numbers up and slow down play-which is why I prefer to create a course on the range or open field or teeing area  where the hazards are on a scale of the course the child is playing.

I'm aware that ithe 150 thing done more today, as opposed to how I grew up where we started on the white tees and flailed away at breakneckspeed to keep pace, which along with proper behavior were all that were required to play the course.
I look at how many more kids are exposed to the game today and how few are retained (statistically speaking on a national level) and I wonder if when we make things easier we aren't just giving kids the same thing they get from their video games where they are shooting in the 50's in a week. letting them play at 150 of course can work, but it tolerates slow play rather than teaching them ways to compensate for their lack of length by planning and playing quickly.
Due to the lack of exposure it seems the opportunity was more coveted then, and kids stuck with it, as opposed to today where it's just one of about 12 activities in a child's day.
Also, just because another pro suggests, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.(based on ssome of the junior programs I've seen,)

As far as seniors, I have a couple of members who come in every year to tell me I need a seperate set of tee markers of a different color on the forward tees for the seniors. Of course these tees aren't for the complainers- :o :o-theyre' for a couple of "older" players they see out there.
I asked "have they complained or are they holding you up"?
"Well,no, but they should be playing a shorter course"
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The world's best 1800 yd. course*
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2010, 12:43:15 PM »
They exist they're jsut callled P&P and from what I can gather, like in most things, Ireland does it best. ;D

Next time you visit Lahinch be sure to play the best two I've seen, Liscannor and Doolin.  Both on authetic links land, no irrigtion (F&F assured) and greens tend to be in hollows or ledges on the side of a Dune about 600 ft square. At Doolin threre's an 85 yarder with an authentic sklyine green looking out over the atlantic.

So which is best guys?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055127354 

Tony

P&P is another world.  I was astonished to find some of those guys never play the "long courses".  These also also had me with the ball.  I couldn't figure out how they were stopping the ball so quickly until I inspected a few.  They are much heavier than a normal ball. 

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing