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Tom Dunne

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2010, 05:26:17 PM »
Mark, top 100, I really don't know. Depending on my mood, I can enjoy a "Carnoustie" and a "North Berwick" more or less equally, and I think it's great when an itinerary includes both types. I do think you're being a bit modest about your home club--a palace of quirk it is not, but it tops Ashburnham (and many others) handily both for the presentation of the links and the natural setting.

I think if you'd asked me your question in 2006 I would have responded in the negative without hesitation, but Aberdovey has seen some fairly significant changes in the past couple of years. I think those who haven't been over in recent years will find a much tougher course. The native grass was out of control in the summer of '09--and I don't mean on the dunes, but rather in the course's interior. I suppose you can never entirely separate the subjectivity in play here ("he had a bad day, drove it sideways", etc., and all true), but based on multiple previous visits I just didn't associate Aberdovey with lost balls.

There are a couple of shots of Aberdovey from last year in this piece of propaganda I filmed last year: http://out-and-back.net/?p=1315. Note the comment below from John Kemp, Aberdovey's consulting architect, which I interpreted as an admission that the course is in something of a transitional period. What's left unsaid is that a lot of this SSSI stuff came into play because the club wanted to build a short game practice facility and add some new back tees. It's entirely possible that Ian and Rob will encounter something different, but Aberdovey '09 wasn't what I'd come to expect from the place.

By contrast, I found Ashburnham to be both challenging and eminently playable. It's just not nearly as romantic of a place as Aberdovey, though, and that factor has a way of putting a thumb on the scales--as it should for the overseas traveler.


Sean_A

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2010, 06:01:00 PM »
When I saw the original post I assumed 10 courses was the limit and Celtic Manor had to be one of them.  Given this, the other no brainer choices are

Porthcawl
Pennard
Tenby
Southerndown
Aberdovey
Harlech

After these seven I would have to include Conwy, but I know what Mark is saying - only I disagree with him.  

That leaves two fliers and for me they are Bull Bay & P&K.  Possibly Ashburnham gets a nod if there are logistical issues - likely with Bull Bay.  Put it this way, I have no desire to return to Ashburnham and this is the only one of the courses mentioned above I feel this way.

Like me, Mark chucks in some non-Welsh beauts and the suggestion is worth noting, just as Kington is seriously worth ditching a course for - likely Bull Bay because it is well out of the way from all the other courses.  

I just can't see there being any room for Nevyn or Porthmadog even if more courses could be taken in.  I think North Wales is better than both of these.  It has a handful of non-descript holes, but not as many as Porthmadog or Nevyn and it has more really good holes than either Porthmadog or Nevyn.

Ciao  
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 01:42:04 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Tom Dunne

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2010, 06:14:43 PM »
Sean, I agree both with your no-brainers (with the exception of Tenby) and your fliers. And I also agree with your assessment of North Wales, but as fun as that course is--Hades, O.L, L.O., etc.-- I just don't think it's enough to knock Nefyn's high points (1 and 2, the peninsula holes, the walk down to Ty Coch to have a beer on the beach) off the list. Nefyn is a great golf experience more than it is a great golf course, while North Wales is (to me) a second-visit treat--basically proof that there is enough very good golf in the country that you can't quite see everything in one go.    
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 06:16:23 PM by Tom Dunne »

jeffwarne

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2010, 06:51:44 PM »
Sean, I agree both with your no-brainers (with the exception of Tenby) and your fliers. And I also agree with your assessment of North Wales, but as fun as that course is--Hades, O.L, L.O., etc.-- I just don't think it's enough to knock Nefyn's high points (1 and 2, the peninsula holes, the walk down to Ty Coch to have a beer on the beach) off the list. Nefyn is a great golf experience more than it is a great golf course, while North Wales is (to me) a second-visit treat--basically proof that there is enough very good golf in the country that you can't quite see everything in one go.    

ditto Sean's list of no brainers and ditto Tom's thumb's up of Nefyn (which I would place just after Sean's no brainer list for several reasons not all architecturally related)
and ditto both of their thoughts on Asburnham

After Sean's list and Nefyn, I'd put Cardigan (great fun and views) on a par with Bull Bay(I enjoyed it while there but by trip's end had it near the bottom of my list) ,North Wales(I really enjoyed this place) and Ashburnham ( a little hard to get the feel of from the yellow tees which were at least 6-800 yards short of the back tees

Sean, Tom,
what's OL,LO? ??? ???
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ian Andrew

Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2010, 08:01:53 PM »
Since our plans are not final, I'm enjoying the debate.

We were going to include something outside Wales like Hoylake, but RT and I have really warmed up to the idea of sticking to Wales. I think we are both looking forward to playing a couple of the quirkier courses as much as we look forward to Pennard and Royal Porthcawl.


jeffwarne

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2010, 08:06:43 PM »
Since our plans are not final, I'm enjoying the debate.

We were going to include something outside Wales like Hoylake, but RT and I have really warmed up to the idea of sticking to Wales. I think we are both looking forward to playing a couple of the quirkier courses as much as we look forward to Pennard and Royal Porthcawl.



bingo!!!!
There'll be more opportunities to play Hoylake, Wallessy when playing the great couses of that area.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2010, 08:07:52 PM »
As if Pennard is not quirky!  :)  You'll see.

I haven't got much to add, since you have seen my reviews of all the courses I know about.  But it will be a great trip.  When are you going?  (You can tell me privately if you prefer.)  I have to make 1-2 trips over there this year and I would love to get back to some of those places.

jeffwarne

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2010, 08:19:11 PM »
Since our plans are not final, I'm enjoying the debate.

We were going to include something outside Wales like Hoylake, but RT and I have really warmed up to the idea of sticking to Wales. I think we are both looking forward to playing a couple of the quirkier courses as much as we look forward to Pennard and Royal Porthcawl.



Also Borth and Ynyslas -near Aberystywyth(oldest club in Wales and Colt redo) may fit into you itinerary of lesser known/quirky courses.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 10:06:57 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2010, 08:22:45 PM »
I have got to be the only other guy on this board who has been to Borth & Ynyslas.

Which has to be the best name for a golf course in Wales.

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2010, 09:54:09 PM »
After my first visit in '06 I would have echoed Kevin's sentiment, but now I'm with Ben Stephens on the front nine at P&K. I was there a few months ago, and the sandier soil and firmer turf makes a big difference on that inland side of the road. Small greens with plenty of contour that become quite interesting when they're harder to hold. This nine has been much improved.

Tom

Thanks for the update - I was last there in 05 and more of the B9 sits in the memory bank.

Tom Dunne

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2010, 10:07:07 PM »
Tom,

Aha...I've been to Borth & Ynyslas. Straight out, straight back. Only a couple of miles from Aberdovey, but almost an hour's drive away since you have to go all the way around the estuary--a very pretty drive. Borth is one of the most brutally windswept courses in Wales--except for a couple of dunesy holes around the loop, there's just the low seawall for protection. Lovely people at B&Y, unlovely location. Only a few minutes out of the way if you're heading to Aberdovey from the south.

Here's my Flickr photo set from B&Y. Somehow they came up in reverse order, so any curious viewers should start at the end.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/38082984@N03/sets/72157623289138599/

jeffwarne

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2010, 10:15:43 PM »
Tom,

Aha...I've been to Borth & Ynyslas. Straight out, straight back. Only a couple of miles from Aberdovey, but almost an hour's drive away since you have to go all the way around the estuary--a very pretty drive. Borth is one of the most brutally windswept courses in Wales--except for a couple of dunesy holes around the loop, there's just the low seawall for protection. Lovely people at B&Y, unlovely location. Only a few minutes out of the way if you're heading to Aberdovey from the south.

Here's my Flickr photo set from B&Y. Somehow they came up in reverse order, so any curious viewers should start at the end.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/38082984@N03/sets/72157623289138599/


In fact Tom Dunne may have been the one who told me about Borth and Ynyslas . (unless I saw it in the other Tom's CG ;D)
He (Tom Dunne) was a big help with my 2008 trip to Wales.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ian Andrew

Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2010, 11:45:26 PM »
When are you going?

Last week of April

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2010, 01:50:42 AM »
I have got to be the only other guy on this board who has been to Borth & Ynyslas.

Which has to be the best name for a golf course in Wales.

With the other Tom that's at least 4 of us.



 

My nomination for coolest name...Cwmfhydneuadd Golf Club
Let's make GCA grate again!

Sean_A

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2010, 01:52:28 AM »
Sean, I agree both with your no-brainers (with the exception of Tenby) and your fliers. And I also agree with your assessment of North Wales, but as fun as that course is--Hades, O.L, L.O., etc.-- I just don't think it's enough to knock Nefyn's high points (1 and 2, the peninsula holes, the walk down to Ty Coch to have a beer on the beach) off the list. Nefyn is a great golf experience more than it is a great golf course, while North Wales is (to me) a second-visit treat--basically proof that there is enough very good golf in the country that you can't quite see everything in one go.    

ditto Sean's list of no brainers and ditto Tom's thumb's up of Nefyn (which I would place just after Sean's no brainer list for several reasons not all architecturally related)
and ditto both of their thoughts on Asburnham

After Sean's list and Nefyn, I'd put Cardigan (great fun and views) on a par with Bull Bay(I enjoyed it while there but by trip's end had it near the bottom of my list) ,North Wales(I really enjoyed this place) and Ashburnham ( a little hard to get the feel of from the yellow tees which were at least 6-800 yards short of the back tees

Sean, Tom,
what's OL,LO? ??? ???

Jeff

We shall have to agree to disagree about Nevyn. I think it totally laughable that it was once a top 100 course and it goes to show how misguided some of these rankings are.  Like I said, if you catch it on a day when the views are not happening, the course is very, very medicore.

OL and LO are the 16th & 17th of  Wales.  Not a great course by any means, but it does have 5-6 really good holes.  

Introducing O.L & L.O.  Two par 3s which are one the very best examples of crossing holes.  

#16 or O.L.'s green rests below the golfers and to the right.  Incidentally, those golfers are on L.O.'s tee.




#17 or L.O.  A superb example of a shelf green.



Ciao

« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 04:31:27 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Mark Pearce

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2010, 04:22:49 AM »
I'll echo Sean's suggestion of Kington.  It may not quite be in Wales but you can see most of Wales from the top of that hill and if you want quirk (and fun) it's at the top of the list.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2010, 05:46:51 AM »
Sean - whilst ratings are just that, Golf World does use an impressive panel of pros, top amateurs, journos and administrators who are less likely to be seduced by a nice freebie from an upmarket pay 'n play joint. It definately has less quirks than other links.

My point with Aberdovey, Nefyn, RstD and Porthmadog is they represent exceeding good value compared to some trips.
Cave Nil Vino

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2010, 06:05:44 AM »
If you want quirk, after you've played Royal St David's drive up into the hills to Ffestiniog. It's only half an hour away. It is the most unlikely golf course you will ever play - roughly like playing on the surface of the moon. http://www.ffestinioggolf.org/ It may be short on length but it isn't short of character. You might also consider the 10-hole course at Bala. Again it is very basic, but it has the hardest par 3 in Wales to open the round. http://www.golffbala.co.uk/ The views are marvellous in good weather and you get the feeling that this is golf as it used to be. Mid-Wales is still remarkably undeveloped and is, these days, home to thousands of red kite. Keep looking up! For that matter, if you are in Mid-Wales look in on Llandrindod Wells http://www.lwgc.co.uk/index.php That reminds me, I need to go back there. Sean should we meet there some time? You should, of course, play in England on Friday 23rd April - it is St George's Day. There is a lot of useful information on the Wales Tourist Board's website. http://www.golf.visitwales.com/ Finally, I am around at the end of April, so if you want to play Conwy I should be happy to meet you there (not 1st May, however).

Ian Andrew

Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2010, 09:41:44 AM »
Sean's profile of Burhnam and Barrow got me thinking about going there....
Great profile by the way.

The more you guys bring up places like the L.O./O.L. the more I change my mind on where we should go......
I think we'll pick up the conversation agin this week-end.

Too many "good" choices!

Jason McNamara

Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2010, 06:13:12 PM »
You should, of course, play in England on Friday 23rd April - it is St George's Day.

Or if you're still in Wales, at least go see one of the Edwardian castles, since they were built by James of St. George.   ;)  Obviously you'll be adjacent to Harlech, and if you're driving from Bull Bay to Conwy you'll pass within 5 miles of Beaumaris.  (Plus of course there's Conwy itself.)

Ian Andrew

Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2010, 08:06:28 AM »
This appears to be the trip, because we ran into a couple of snags along the way

April 24: Burnham and Barrow (added)
April 25: Celtic (required)
April 26: Celtic/Southerndown
April 27: Porthcawl/Pennard
April 28: Aberdovey
April 29: Royal St. David’s/Nefyn
April 30: Birkdale/Hoylake
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 08:20:44 AM by Ian Andrew »

Matt_Ward

Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #46 on: April 02, 2010, 10:14:49 AM »
Ian:

In regards to Celtic Manor -- you go there for the facility -- the golf dimension is not at the same level as what Sean suggested with the other alternatives.

Sean:

Have you played the Nicklaus Jr layout thus far ?

Marty Bonnar

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #47 on: April 02, 2010, 04:39:02 PM »
Ian,
if you have a spare day, I'd highly recommend a trip to Portmeirion. No, it's not a golf course, but, as a designer, I'm sure you'd LOVE it. Made famous in the 60s as the location for 'The Prisoner' - DAH-DAH-DAH! I AM NOT A NUMBER, I AM A FREE MAN!!!!

http://www.portmeirion-village.com/

It's very, very cool. Well worth the detour.

cheers,
FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Ian Andrew

Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2010, 05:03:22 PM »
Marty,

We are staying in there.
I'm an architecture buff as well - so I'm curious to see all the styles mixed together.

I'll need to see the movie.

Marty Bonnar

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2010, 05:09:30 PM »
Fan-freakin-tastic!!!
You'll love it.
Not a movie - was a VERY bizarre TV series. Bound to be on Youtube somewhere - yep, there you go!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRPDO63rI1E

Any time for a jaunt slightly further NORTH????

cheers,
FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

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