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Ian Andrew

Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« on: February 10, 2010, 04:00:15 PM »
It looks like I’m going on a golf trip to Wales with Robert Thompson. Currently we have arrangements to play the courses listed below. I was hoping that people who are familiar with these courses would offer some comments about what they enjoyed about each of these layouts. I read Tom's comments in the CG and I must say they all sound like fun.

Since we have contemplated a slight change, is there a course that you would avoid for any reason.

This is a our current plan in the order that we play them.

Celtic Manor
Southerndown
Pennard
Royal Porthcawl
Pyle & Kenfig
Tenby
Aberdovey
Royal St Davids
Porthmadog
Nefyn
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 05:11:23 PM by Ian Andrew »

Ian Andrew

Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2010, 04:01:13 PM »
Any photos, or links to some, would also be appreciated too.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2010, 04:09:00 PM »
Ian, I'm curious if you left Royal Porthcawl off the list on purpose or by accident.  It's surely the best in south Wales, really an outstanding links with great holes.

Gary Slatter

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2010, 04:46:48 PM »
I really enjoyed Pyle and Kenfig and Royal Porthcawl and the ROSE and CROWN PUB nearby in Nottage.   I have heard that Celtic Manor's 2010 course is really boring and usually too wet to enjoy.  My favourite part of Wales is Liverpool and Hoylake  ;)
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Jonathan Cummings

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2010, 04:59:59 PM »
My God - what Bill says in spades!!  Porthcawl is not to be missed!  A Doak 8 and maybe a 9 if you stay and eat there.  JC

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2010, 05:00:39 PM »
I think a golf architect leisurely traveling with a golf writer is an inappropriate conflict of interest  ;) ;D
jeffmingay.com

Matthew Hunt

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2010, 05:08:46 PM »
Heard that Celtic Manor is a dour course. Even a couple of the golf mag's give it a bad write-up, which is very rare in the UK.

Ian Andrew

Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2010, 05:11:55 PM »
Ian, I'm curious if you left Royal Porthcawl off the list on purpose or by accident.  It's surely the best in south Wales, really an outstanding links with great holes.

Bill,

It's on the list - just forgot to put it in.

Ian Andrew

Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2010, 05:15:27 PM »
I think a golf architect leisurely traveling with a golf writer is an inappropriate conflict of interest  ;) ;D

Since you are both - is that a conflict of interest when you travel?  ;) ;D

Bill_McBride

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2010, 05:25:50 PM »
Ian, I'm curious if you left Royal Porthcawl off the list on purpose or by accident.  It's surely the best in south Wales, really an outstanding links with great holes.

Bill,

It's on the list - just forgot to put it in.

Look forward to your thoughts if you haven't played it before.  I haven't played another links where you can see the ocean from every hole.  There are some holes a bit higher up that aren't particularly "linksy" but they are all interesting and fun to play.  There are some great cross bunkers to be challenged - or avoided!

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2010, 05:33:48 PM »
I think a golf architect leisurely traveling with a golf writer is an inappropriate conflict of interest  ;) ;D

Since you are both - is that a conflict of interest when you travel?  ;) ;D


Yes Ian. I often feel conflicted when I travel! Thanks for asking  ;D
jeffmingay.com

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2010, 06:14:16 PM »
There is quite a bit of driving to do between south and North Wales.
I wonder if I can tempt you to try Cardigan?  Was I over influenced by the fine weather I enjoyed and the pleasure of discovering form myself a course that no one else seems to have played?  It’s fairly minimalist stuff on the side of a hill
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30982.msg601877/     
We recently discussed Aberdovey.  Although I would now rate them both as Doak 6’s,I was knocked out by Cardigan when I saw it whereas Aberdovey seemed a little underwhelming, but it has gained in stature in my memory whereas Cardigan has me wondering.
Aberdovey
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42867.0/


I wouldn’t be bothered to see Celtic Manor – Burnham and Berrow is just a short detour before you hit Wales. Same at the other end, drive past Porthmadog and Nefyn and play Hoylake and Wallasey.

Whatever, you’ll have fun.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Sean_A

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2010, 06:26:22 PM »
It looks like I’m going on a golf trip to Wales with Robert Thompson. Currently we have arrangements to play the courses listed below. I was hoping that people who are familiar with these courses would offer some comments about what they enjoyed about each of these layouts. I read Tom's comments in the CG and I must say they all sound like fun.

Since we have contemplated a slight change, is there a course that you would avoid for any reason.

This is a our current plan in the order that we play them.

Celtic Manor
Southerndown
Pennard
Royal Porthcawl
Pyle & Kenfig
Tenby
Aberdovey
Royal St Davids
Porthmadog
Nefyn


Of course this depends on how much time you have and I am assuming the writer has to stop at Celtic Manor.  Personally, I would drop Porthmadog and Nefyn.  Both courses have a few outstanding holes, but on the whole are not anywhere near the quality of course one should play if traveling overseas.  

I would add Conwy and Bull Bay.  Neither are wonderful, but they are both better than the drop outs and Conwy has a somewhat special position in Welsh golf as being a final qualifyer for the Open.  If you are going to Conwy I would make sure to stop in at North Wales just to walk OL and LO - this combo is really one of the great ones in golf and would help the writer's piece.  Finally, in a bid of Welsh patriotism, I would add Kington.  It is in England, but on ancestral Welsh land.  Besides, this could turn out to be the surprise of the trip.  Besides II, it would help the writer with his piece to have an original angle - God knows the Ryder Cup angle is a dead horse.  

Ciao    
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 06:29:03 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2010, 07:18:40 PM »
Celtic Manor
Southerndown – Very strong layout atop the cliffs looking back towards the town of Porthcawl.  A definite on this itinerary.
Pennard – wild, and unruly… in the best of ways!  Holes 10-17 were my favorite stretch on this trip.  Not quite as refined as Porthcawl, but if you were to only play one place in Wales this might be the one based on the unique look (the description “moonscape” was proffered by one writer) to the grounds.
Royal Porthcawl – The best of the bunch, and is certainly “Open” worthy I’d imagine.  Don’t miss it!
Pyle & Kenfig ¬– Jekyll and Hyde between the two nines… inward nine is far more inspiring playing through and among some pretty gutsy dunes (all except #18 really).  Outward nine plays over pretty pedestrian terrain, but don’t let that fool you as there are some very good holes.
Tenby
Aberdovey
Royal St Davids – Much like P&K, there are two sides to this course, with the stretch of 12 -18 in the towering dunes the most memorable.  Yet, the rest of course is no slouch.  A definite on this itinerary.
Porthmadog
Nefyn – Great views.  Interesting golf.  Not the best but, whatever.  If you’re passing might as well play it.

jeffwarne

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2010, 07:33:13 PM »
Celtic Manor
Southerndown – Very strong layout atop the cliffs looking back towards the town of Porthcawl.  A definite on this itinerary.
Pennard – wild, and unruly… in the best of ways!  Holes 10-17 were my favorite stretch on this trip.  Not quite as refined as Porthcawl, but if you were to only play one place in Wales this might be the one based on the unique look (the description “moonscape” was proffered by one writer) to the grounds.
Royal Porthcawl – The best of the bunch, and is certainly “Open” worthy I’d imagine.  Don’t miss it!
Pyle & Kenfig ¬– Jekyll and Hyde between the two nines… inward nine is far more inspiring playing through and among some pretty gutsy dunes (all except #18 really).  Outward nine plays over pretty pedestrian terrain, but don’t let that fool you as there are some very good holes.
Tenby
Aberdovey
Royal St Davids – Much like P&K, there are two sides to this course, with the stretch of 12 -18 in the towering dunes the most memorable.  Yet, the rest of course is no slouch.  A definite on this itinerary.
Porthmadog
Nefyn – Great views.  Interesting golf.  Not the best but, whatever.  If you’re passing might as well play it.


I'll finish
Tenby-quaint, fun old feeling limks-not ot be missed-great town
Aberdovey-ditto only different-charming

Nefyn-don't be talked out of this one. Fascinating scenery and some good golf holes.
Great charm with a beachside bar at the bottom of the cliffs on the 12th (and 15th ;) ) hole

Cardigan is scenic and fun.
Bulls Bay perhaps a cut above architecturally
but I enjoyed others more.
North Wales was fun with some quirk (Conwy was not available)

Play Pennard twice-it's that good
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ian Andrew

Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2010, 07:40:27 PM »
Tony,

Thanks for the link - I remembered it as soon as I saw the first picture.
I’m glad it’s on the list.


Sean,

Tom Dunne has already put us onto Bull’s Bay and I think there is a descent chance we will add that one.


To all,

Thanks.

In a previous trip we ran into problems with timing and stopped at Montrose because we had no chance to reach our original destination. It turned out to be one of the highlights of that trip despite the fact we played many more famous courses than that. I always wanted to recapture the magic of that day and vowed the next trip to Scotland would be to see the “other” seaside layouts.

About a year ago I read about a gentleman who travels to the UK continuously as money allows because his goal is to play all the seaside courses no matter how big or small. I think he’s got the right idea. I very excited about this trip.


Kevin Pallier

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2010, 09:03:42 PM »
Ian

I found the driving around Wales particulalry tough with all the single carriage lanes and windy roads. Remember to allow plenty of time re: same.

Celtic Manor - dour is a good word to describe it. I haven't seen it post the changes for the Ryder Cup.
Royal Porthcawl - one of my favourite links experiances in all GB&I. Make sure to stay at the dormie house.
Pyle & Kenfig - builds to a solid course. F9 is quite uninspiring
Royal St Davids - Agree with Wayne's comments
Nefyn - quirky and hard to get to

Sean_A

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2010, 02:15:51 AM »
Here is the thing with Nevyn.  Lets say you play in poor weather which doesn't affird the good views.  Is the course good enough to give a go?  I think it falls far short.  The greens are prosaic.  The turf on about 14 holes is a meadow.  People like the views, but there will be plenty of views on offer elsewhere. 

P&K gets a bad rap for the front nine.  IMO this is ill-founded.  There is some very good golf on the front if one remembers that variety on a course is its greatest strength. 

Pay attention to the bunkering at Harlech.  It is vastly under-rated just as the course is on this site.  Folks are far too much worried about playing through dunes and under-value the good golf on flatter land. 

http://delicious.com/golfclubatlas/Wales

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ben Stephens

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2010, 02:21:17 AM »
Ian,

Celtic Manor is a disappointment from a design point of view - it is meant to be an exciting matchplay course - NOT!! from TV it looks like a boring one dimensional long slouch! I would avoid it and play the real golf courses. For the Newport area - Rolls of Monmouth is a hidden gem and it is so underrated!

Kevin - why do you say that the front 9 is quite uninspiring at P and K? - I thought it had the better green complexes than the back 9. The front nine is Colt and he uses the land very well and there are subtle land movements. The back nine looked exciting goin through the dunes but most of the fairways and greens were flattish. P and K have done some work on the front 9 to make it more linkish.

Porthcawl is a great course the best in Wales - I would put it ahead of Turnberry, Lytham and Hoylake.

Cheers
Ben

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2010, 06:28:28 AM »
Getting from South Wales to North Wales is always something of a slog, but if you are including Aberdovey and R St David's then you have cracked it. Otherwise, drive into England on the M4, go up the M5 and M6 unti you hit the M56 then down the A55 coast road - it's quicker. I have to say that Nefyn is only a must play if you are already in the region - it's a long way from anywhere and though the views are good - in good weather - it isn't Cypress Point, by a long way. Bull Bay is good stuff, apart from a couple of holes which I imagine are not Fowler and there is some rudimentary bunkering that I doubt belongs to Fowler, either. The site is so fecund and the green locations so brilliant that tyhe course doesn't need sand. It is built on rocky ground overlooking the sea, but it isn't a links. If you let me know when you might want to play Conwy I could see if I'm free and introduce you which would save a bit of money and at least get you playing off the white tees. The architecture is nothing to write home about, but the course is tough. However, if the opportunity presents itself, take in Hoylake and Wallasey in preference. If you end your journey there think about flying home from Manchester rather than leaving a bad taste in the mouth by doing the slog back down to Heathrow. Will they let you on the 2010 Course at Celtic Manor before the Ryder Cup? If you take up Sean's suggestion of Kington, then you could carry on up the Marches and play Welshpool (mountainous Braid) and/or Llanymynech (fabulous views and some cracking good holes, plus some ordinary ones) and/or Church Stretton.

Tom Dunne

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2010, 10:34:14 AM »
After my first visit in '06 I would have echoed Kevin's sentiment, but now I'm with Ben Stephens on the front nine at P&K. I was there a few months ago, and the sandier soil and firmer turf makes a big difference on that inland side of the road. Small greens with plenty of contour that become quite interesting when they're harder to hold. This nine has been much improved.


Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2010, 12:39:48 PM »
re: P&K's F9.  I agree with both Ben/Sean and Kevin.  Here's how.  Taken on its own, these holes are very good.  My memory is fading after a couple years, but i do remember the greens were quite interesting (although the greensites on the back are certainly the equal - 11 - 17 are very memorable till this day) and the stretch of holes 4 (par 3 i think) through 8 utlilized angles off the tee quite well.  However, when you cross the road #10 still feels quite like the first nine holes, but then you head into some very interesting and daunting dunes which give these holes the extra WOW that the front, in comparison, lacks. 

Sean's right about Nefyn... if the weather is foul than the redeeming qualities of the course will be lost. 

All in all, to list them in order of preference:

Royal Porthcawl
Pennard
Royal St. David's
Southerndown
P&K

I missed Conwy so can't comment on it.  We did play Machynys as a late fill-in for Tenby, and I would have skipped it altogether.


Tom Dunne

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2010, 03:20:35 PM »
One course that has somehow fallen into the category of underrated is Ashburnham. It's one of those "ugly links", if you know what I mean--stern, tough holes and views of industrial facilities versus Ailsa Craig in dappled sunlight. It gets off to a bit of a slow start, but the middle section of the course is pretty strong. There are definitely holes worth seeing there. The club website is a mess and has been for months, unfortunately.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2010, 04:38:44 PM »
Tom, You are right. Ashburnham a serious course, but is it in the top 100 GB links courses? There are so many workman-like courses in the UK (and I include Conwy) which are capable of testing the best but don't send you home with a feeling of enjoyment at the nature of the challenges set. I'm sure I would struggle to score well at Ashburnham, but would I enjoy it as much as a round at Aberdovey? This is not a challenging question, just a genuine enquiry. 

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Thoughts and Advice for Golf In Wales
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2010, 04:52:02 PM »
I've played RP, P&K, Southerness and Pennard which is a good tour on it's own. RP is a very good course hence the Amateur on a regular basis and the Walker Cup as for the Open it simply doesn't have the space.

This year we play Aberdovey, RStD, Porthmadog and Nefyn only Portmadog isn't a Golf World UK top 100 and the greenfees are a fraction of most top 100s. Make sure you make a joint booking as you instantly get 10% off the greenfees which average around £50.
Cave Nil Vino