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Brian Walshe

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Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2010, 09:54:03 PM »
Clayts,

The condition of RM had well and truly gone backwards before the drought became an issue.  Yes the lack of water has made things worse, but the condition of RM around the year 2000 was significantly poorer than it was in the mid 1980's.  In the last 15 to 20 years there has been a gradual but consistent decline in the quality of the putting surfaces, some no doubt as a result of twice changing the grasses used.

The drought has been used as the reason for the conditioning issues by some people.  I think that all the drought has done is accelerate a downward spiral that was aleady well advanced before the drought.

In terms of the 4th West, do you think that the change to the drive bunker and the adding of rough to the left of it has enhanced the hole?  I understand there were percieved saftey issues with allowing people to play to the left of the drive bunker on 4, but from what I have seen the long grass has made things worse.  I have seen groups of 4 tramping around in the rough looking for a ball and therefore spending much longer in the "danger zone" from the 17E tee than if it had been short grass and they were able to walk up and hit the ball. 

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2010, 10:52:22 PM »
I understand that the back tee was not built for me - but any par 5 hole that I am going to to hit a 5 iron off the tee is tricky given how straight I hit it. There is no way I would try and drive it into the right hand fairway because there is no way to reach in two so why take the risk?
The second shot from the top of the hill is still one of the best shots in the country.
I loved the way Kel Nagle used to play way left with the driver and still make a four with a nice wedge and a putt.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 10:53:57 PM by Mike_Clayton »

Emil Weber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2010, 04:20:12 AM »

Kind of an odd statement for someone who appears to be using a picture of the 13th hole at NSW for their avatar. Maybe you should be using this one:


Here you go

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2010, 05:26:39 AM »
Isn't part of the shift in the ratings at the top attributable simply to the fact that NSW and Kingston Heath hosted big tournaments recently and this has burnished their halo? Post the President's Cup maybe the status quo will reassert itself.

It is nice to know Australia has 30 better courses than St Andrew's Beach - methinks not, but doubtless all the bad PR etc takes its toll. I liked the Legends course at Moonah Links, but i don't think it is better than nearby StAB.

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2010, 06:04:57 AM »
Isn't part of the shift in the ratings at the top attributable simply to the fact that NSW and Kingston Heath hosted big tournaments recently and this has burnished their halo? Post the President's Cup maybe the status quo will reassert itself.

I would like to see far less burnishing of halos on top 100 lists.

Brian Walshe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2010, 07:19:05 AM »
Philip,

I think the change in order had more to do with a tarnished halo being acknowledged that two other halos being burnished.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2010, 09:08:25 AM »
Two questions: Does RM have days when the composite course is played? How deep in the rankings do you go before there is a significant downgrade in quality(in other words,we know a certain number of courses are great or very good but I have no knowledge of what the 60th course on a list would be like.A subjective question I know)

Terry Thornton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2010, 09:16:11 AM »
Isn't part of the shift in the ratings at the top attributable simply to the fact that NSW and Kingston Heath hosted big tournaments recently and this has burnished their halo?

I would hope that course raters form their opinions from personal visits not TV viewing. Only guessing, but most haven't been at either course since those tournaments were played.

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2010, 10:08:37 AM »
I am sure you are right Brian, and from what you have said elsewhere, deserved. It is difficult to avoid noting the coincidence, however. Incidentally, when I played Royal Melbourne four years ago the problems on the greens were so bad that at least four of them were out of play, so I am sympathetic to the argument re its poor conditioning - and to the fact that past a certain point, you cease to care about GCA merits/they are overshadowed.

Neil_Crafter

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Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2010, 03:17:40 PM »
Almost certainly the demotion of RM is due to conditioning - which has been very poor going back quite a few years. A lot of returfing is happening there and by all reports is going along well. Hopefully it will be back in good shape for the Presidents Cup.

The architecture at NSW is far less sophisticated than that of RM, in fact personally, having played both last November, there is a pretty large gap between the courses. far less so between RMW and KH. I think RM will get back its top spot in the future once its conditioning is up to scratch.

As for other anomalies in the listing, comments were made about St Andrews Beach - but having never played it (sadly) I'm not able to comment. Barwon Heads (one of our clients) rose again in the rankings so that was good, as did Glenelg ever so slightly. Adelaide courses like Royal Adelaide and Kooyonga dropped quite a bit, probably warranted. Grange West rose after Clayts remodelling.

Andrew Bertram

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2010, 06:00:23 PM »
Mike

RM have an event open to Members each year where they play qualoifying rounds on West and East and the leading X number of players, i think about 100, play the final round on the composite. Men play the E and W on 2 Saturdays and the Ladies over 2 wednesdays and the final round is on a Saturday.

The Composite is also in play on Christmas Day. They lock all gates except the main gate and have the course ranger on duty who only allows Members and their family in. I spent 6 Christmas mornigs in a row playing 18 and sometimes 36 holes in the composite while i was an assistant pro there in the mid 90's.

John

IMO you give the "paddock" holes a bad rep whereas they are all wonderful holes in their own right, maybe not up to the class of other stretches on the course but still worthy.

The green on 13 is extremely deceptive with the ridge running across the centre and to find teh right portion of the green can be challenging. The back portion beyond the ridge is quite shallow and many balls do run off the drop away and over the green.

The 14th green complex has always been one of my favourites at RM with some subtle contouring and excellent bunkering. IN my early days there i was still using persimmon and without a solid drive you were always about 145 out, whereas now it is 3 wood and wedge or less. The correct line has always been as close to the left hand trees as possible.

While the 15th has seen better days as a par 5 at 427m it still has wonderful qualities. Again in the day of the persimmon driver you needed a solid drive to think about trying to play your second over the cross hazard. Today it is a drive and a hybrid to mid iron.

KH and Yarra Yarra are fortunately located over a natural spring and have more water than they need, hence the conditioning is generally excellent. Commonwealth is loacted very lose to both KH and YY and it is not over the same water course.
YY has 5 bores of which 3 produce good water.

IMO RM West is still the best course in Australia, the gap to KH is closer than ever with the work they have done over the past decade. NSW is wonderful and clearly 3rd, however there is quite a gap between KH and NSW.
It would be great to think that RM could quietly go about making the changes they are currently undertaking without them being questioned from one end of the country to the other. I for one am quite confident that with the current management we will all see the best of the old girl in the years to come.

Of the top 100 listing I would swap Metropolitan and Victoria. While i enjoy Moonah Legends and the dunes they should really be somewhere in the mid 20's not 13 ands 14. St Andrews must be 30 due to lack of play from the raters, that is the only way.

Last year I had 2 raters turn up in my Pro Shop saying they had a booking to play and they were raters with Golf Digest. NO booking was made, they expected Golf Digest to book for them. We had a full time sheet with 180 players,so we added a group to accommodate them and we charged them our member's guest green fee. The reaction was one of utter contempt that we should be charging them and not bowing and scraping to them. I called the Editor to confoirm they were indeed raters of which he siad yes they were. Not surprisingly neither was listed in teh latest edition of teh magazine as being on the panel! :)

       

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2010, 06:53:19 PM »
Andrew,

I am not sure how NSW is 'clearly 3rd' when it is competing with Barnbougle Dunes.
It would be interesting for an unbiased observer to 'match play' the two courses hole for hole.
It is an imperfect measure but for me BD is quite some way ahead.
It is four up after four for a start.

Andrew Bertram

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2010, 07:03:11 PM »
Clayts

I meant to put across that between KH and NSW there is quite a gap, i was not thinking about any gap between NSW and BD.

I would have BD ahead of NSW

I was at St Andrews on Thursday, played 13 holes before the deluge. We had the club committee and senior staff. It is always interesting to see the different reactions from first tiomers down there. It varies from complete love of every aspect of the course to loving teh course but wanting to level the greens out somewhat!

The 9th green was the greatest polariser, the pin was cut on the front edge. I finshed about 8 feet away, a player in another group finished about 5 feet away all the other players finished down the back of the green or down the sope to the left. Most felt the green somewhat unfair, maybe the pin spot was crossing the line of fairness as it was down breeze.

First time i have been back since reopening and it has held up remarkably well considering the amount of money being spent on it and lack of staff.

Andrew

Shane Gurnett

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Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2010, 07:21:36 PM »
Andrew, I see that Yarra Yarra is ranked 29 by GA and 34 by AGD, despite generally excellent year round conditioning. This implies that the architecture is holding it back from a higher level, despite world class holes like 5, 7, 11 15, etc.. Is the club concerned by its fall from grace in the rankings, and if so what is the plan to revive its standing?

Shane.

Mark_F

Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2010, 07:39:17 PM »

The 9th green was the greatest polariser, the pin was cut on the front edge. I finshed about 8 feet away, a player in another group finished about 5 feet away all the other players finished down the back of the green or down the sope to the left. Most felt the green somewhat unfair, maybe the pin spot was crossing the line of fairness as it was down breeze.

I just can't fathom this line of thinking. 

A front pin is the most difficult, especially down breeze.  If you have the skill and nerve to hit a drive into the bottom of the valley, you only have a flick with a lob wedge left - if you aren't comfortable with either of those two shots, then hit to the back of the green and two putt.

Not every hole has to be a potential birdie.  The fact that most people think because a hole is down breeze it can be had is simplistic.  There's nothing wrong with messing with people's heads and making a down breeze hole more demanding - especially on a short par four.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2010, 07:53:03 PM »

The 9th green was the greatest polariser, the pin was cut on the front edge. I finshed about 8 feet away, a player in another group finished about 5 feet away all the other players finished down the back of the green or down the sope to the left. Most felt the green somewhat unfair, maybe the pin spot was crossing the line of fairness as it was down breeze.


Andrew:  That is a tough pin on that hole, with that wind.  Yet two players were able to stick their approach on the front plateau, so it wasn't impossible -- you just had to be really good.  I guess some of your buddies aren't as good as they would like to think they are.

Frankly, it's just great to be discussing the course again, so I'm happy to take the criticism.

Andrew Bertram

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2010, 08:11:46 PM »
Mark / Tom

IMO the 9th green is superb and love the options it provides. The pin position was about a metre past the slope / false front and 3m onto the green from memory. 

Clearly the club player should play to the back portion and accept his fate, my partner off 17 played a good second to 35 feet and 2 putted for us to win the hole.

Tom

I did hear from some of the finance guys involved while there Thusrady that they have opened discussions with regarding the 2nd course, is this correct?

Shane

Yarra Yarra has a 5 -6 year plan with Martin Hawtree. Initially this is to solve some severe boundary issues on 1,2 and 3. Some lesser boundary issues on 8 and 12 and then improvements on the rest of the course.

The current ranking is a fair and reasonable ranking IMO, the GM and Super concur. However the general membership feel that the club should be ranked higher due to it's excellent conditioning.

Last September the 10th and associated Pond was rebuilt as a new hole with water storage being increased 65%. This was the first major project and has been recieved very well. The 10th is a siginificant improvement on the old 10th and has rectified some internal safety issues between 10 and 11 as well as provide a better flow from 10 to 11 and 12.

The 15th bunkering was redone earlier last year, i believe this was before i last saw you here. That has worked well and has improved the hole. The bunkering was redone to line up better whith the original work the Russell had done. The front left bunker was re done into 2 bunkers while the back right bunker was moved to it's original position so it became visible form the tee.

Martin is back in town in 4 weeks to meet with focus groups of Members and the greens committee. Plans for 3,4,7 and 18 will be shown to Members.

3 is to resolve safety issues and also correct change sthat committees have made over the years. Green moving left to be left of where the 4th tee is.
4 will be rebuilt and re aligned, again the plan is to make it as close as possible to the original Russell design that was changed in the mid 80's by the then commitete using a Member to design the hole. I do not remember the hole but i have been told it was a far better hole than is currently there.

7 will need a realignment of the tee due to the 4th works. There will be a repositioning of the fairway bunkering to bring it back into a relevent position and also some work on teh green side bunkering.

It is proposed to make 18 a 4 of 424 metres.
right hand drive bunker to be removed, left hand drive bunker replaced with 2 bunkers that resemble the original Russell bunkers.

Moving forward there are plans to improve the weaker holes on the course and improve some weaknesses in other holes using a masterplan donw by Martin and working with Russell design thoughts.

I will be doing a run down on what Martin is doing at Yarra Yarra in mid march when he has met with the committee again and plans approved for 3, 4, 7 and 18.

Andrew

Brian Walshe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2010, 06:24:43 AM »
Andrew,

Quote
It would be great to think that RM could quietly go about making the changes they are currently undertaking without them being questioned from one end of the country to the other.

Do you think perhaps the lack of external comment in the past has contributed to a few of the issues RM has today?  In the last 20 or so years a number of poor choices have been made by the club, from ripping up the orginal Sutton's Mix to some of the changes to the East.  All that time there has been little or no comment outside the club.  As you pointed out, the condition at RM really hasn't been what it once was for some time yet there really hasn't been much talk about it.  Perhaps a bit of discussion and comment from people who appreciate RM for what it is, the best architecture in Australia, might not be a bad thing.

I'd like to think that had GCA been around when the Sutton's Mix greens were proposed to be replaced that enough "noise" might have occurred to have people within the club question what was happening.  The club now has the best manager in the country and a very good green keeper.  Hopefully it will soon be back to what it once, it's just a pity it has taken so long to get back on track.

Duncan Betts

Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2010, 06:43:34 AM »
Royal Melbourne is a private golf club and need only be concerned with the opinion of their members, I'd be unhappy as a member if 'external comment' had much influence at all.

If the members are unhappy with it, as I understand many are - that is all that matters, not the opinion of others who might be lucky enough to have a hit a few times a year and then rubbish the place afterwards.

Brian Walshe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2010, 07:34:35 AM »
Duncan,

If the discussions on this board were limited to only public courses then it would be a fair bit smaller and at lot less interesting.  RM is indeed a private club, but amongst other things it holds professional golf tournaments that let the public in, unless of course you intend for the President's Cup to be members only?  Somewhat unsurprisingly then, people other than just members will discuss it.

I'm a little offended that you think I'm "rubbishing the place".  I have nothing but the highest regard for RM.  The West is the best course in the country and one of the best in the world.  The reason I have commented is because I have seen it much better than it was over the last few years.  The fact that the course has had to be closed and both Paul Rak and Bruce Green were interviewed by the media last week suggests that more than the members have been discussing it.  Neither gentlemen by the way refused to comment.  I have no doubt that both the AGD rankings and the press caused quite a deal of discussion amongst the membership and perhaps might even have a little influence on what members think.

You never know, but  there is a chance that if you and a few other members had "rubbished it" a few years ago the improvements currently happening might have happened a few years earlier.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 07:36:06 AM by Brian Walshe »

Mark_F

Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2010, 03:12:49 PM »
Brian,

The board at The National must be remarkably hard of hearing.

There has been a clamor for much of the past ten years for National Ocean to be blown up and started again, and they just aren't listening.


Brian Walshe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2010, 05:48:37 PM »
Mark,

We all live in hope..........

Warwick Loton

Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2010, 10:35:29 PM »
As ever, Woodlands remains under-appreciated.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 10:39:13 PM by Warwick Loton »

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is uninformed the same as unbiased?
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2010, 07:54:32 AM »
Andrew,

I am not sure how NSW is 'clearly 3rd' when it is competing with Barnbougle Dunes.
It would be interesting for an unbiased observer to 'match play' the two courses hole for hole.
It is an imperfect measure but for me BD is quite some way ahead.
It is four up after four for a start.
After the recent pic. thread, I'm looking forward to my BD visit next year... from the pictures at least, it looks like the best course built in Australia since WW II.

If BD goes 6 up on NSW after 6, I imagine it will soon be challenging CPC as the best golf course in the world.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 08:41:01 AM by Anthony Butler »
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Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2010, 03:01:38 PM »

Kind of an odd statement for someone who appears to be using a picture of the 13th hole at NSW for their avatar. Maybe you should be using this one:


Here you go
Much better, Emil.  :)

Although you really need one of those "Open to Public-All Golfers Welcome" signs.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 03:04:15 PM by Anthony Butler »
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