News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
New Australian Top 10
« on: February 10, 2010, 03:05:48 PM »
 
Per Australian Golf Digest

   1. Kingston Heath (Victoria)
     2. New South Wales (New South Wales)
     3. Royal Melbourne, West (Victoria)
     4. Barnbougle Dunes (Tasmania)
     5. Ellerston (New South Wales)
     6. The National, Moonah (Victoria)
     7. Metropolitan (Victoria)
     8. Royal Melbourne, East (Victoria)
     9. Royal Adelaide (South Australia)
    10. Victoria (Victoria)

First time ever that Royal Melbourne isn't # 1.  I guess that's the equivalent of Pine Valley losing its top spot here.  Reasons for the downgrade were "severe conditioning issues" and ranking the East and West Courses separately.

Mark_F

Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2010, 03:13:56 PM »
I wonder how many raters played Ellerston, and how many times they played it.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2010, 03:38:41 PM »
St Andres Beach is the 7th best course o nthe Mornington Peninsula, apparently.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2010, 03:42:04 PM »
Phil
Where did you get that from? I just went on the AGD website and could only find the 2008 Top100 list. Help?

Emil Weber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2010, 03:42:55 PM »
I've only played 3 of these courses but I can tell there's something wrong with that ranking. Barnbougle is clearly better than Kingston Heath, and St Andrews Beach is better than New South Wales, IMHO.

Mark_F

Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2010, 04:00:55 PM »
St Andrews Beach is the 7th best course on the Mornington Peninsula, apparently.

I guess the subtleties of National Ocean and Moonah Links Open are now finally revealing themselves to rankers, David.

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2010, 04:06:17 PM »
The story and list were on Bloomberg.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2010, 04:09:34 PM »
Phil, 

I would post the top 100 list but I don't want to embarrasss Golf Digest. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Mark_F

Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2010, 04:10:22 PM »
First time ever that Royal Melbourne isn't # 1.  I guess that's the equivalent of Pine Valley losing its top spot here.  Reasons for the downgrade were "severe conditioning issues" and ranking the East and West Courses separately.

If RM West is downgraded for "severe conditioning issues," then why is RM East even in the top 100, let alone top 10?

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2010, 08:42:21 PM »
Phil

I think as it stands now - RMW doesn't deserve the # 1 spot. Hopefully it may return to it's former glory in light of the scheduled Presidents Cup.

Personally I wouldn't have NSW as #2 but each to their own

There are some "interesting" selections in the Top50 which differs from what was published a few months ago by Golf Australia

AGD Top50 (2010)

1. Kingston Heath
2. New South Wales
3. Royal Melbourne (West)
4. Barnbougle Dunes
5. Ellerston
6. The National (Moonah)
7. Metropolitan
8. Royal Melbourne (East)
9. Royal Adelaide
10. Victoria
11. The Australian
12. Lake Karrinyup
13. Moonah Links (Legends)
14. The Dunes
15. Royal Sydney
16. The National (Old)
17. The Lakes
18. Newcastle
19. Joondalup (Quarry / Dunes)
20. The Golf Club Kennedy Bay
21. Barwon Heads
22. Woodlands
23. Kooyonga
24. Commonwealth
25. Peninsula (North)
26. Moonah Links (Open)
27. Royal Canberra
28. Magenta Shores
29. 13th Beach (Beach)
30. Royal Queensland
31. The Cut
32. St. Andrews Beach (Gunnamatta)
33. Brookwater
34. Yarra Yarra
35. Hope Island
36. Huntingdale
37. The National (Ocean)
38. Portsea
39. Peninsula (South)
40. Hyatt Regency Coolum
41. Bonville
42. The Grand
43. Concord
44. The Vintage
45. Glenelg
46. Terrey Hills
47. Elanora
48. The Glades
49. Grange (West)
50. The Vines (Lakes)

Duncan Betts

Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2010, 08:53:14 PM »
Wow, is Stevie Wonder on that ratings panel?

Must be made up of celebrities to get a list like that.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2010, 02:28:53 AM »
Duncan
You can argue about the ratings and panels until you are blue in the gills. One thing though, the AGD panel has at least 4 times the number of raters for Golf Australia's list. Whether quality beats quantity I don't know, but when I last saw the AGD raters list there seemed a reasonable number of knowledgeable people on there, didn't notice Stevie Wonder though! Perhaps he's got a gig as Chris Gayle's batting coach!

Terry Thornton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2010, 03:11:06 AM »
didn't notice Stevie Wonder though! Perhaps he's got a gig as Chris Gayle's batting coach!

I thought he was Melvyn's golf cart driver

Brian Walshe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2010, 07:33:09 AM »
I think that most of the list is pretty poor, but I congratulate them on giving RM a poke.  For the last 6years it has got away with being anything from Ok to appalling when it comes to condition.  Yes the architecture is the best in the country but there is a point where the conditioning impacts on the way the course needs to play to get the most out of that sensational architecture.  I first played RMW 30 years ago and I can still vividly remember those greens.  They were absolutely pure and as fast as I've ever seen.  Over the last 5 or 6 years I have played RMW probably a dozen times and at least half of those has seen the course, and in particular the greens, in worse condition then my local muni.  Given the press their "fall from grace" has had locally, I think the efforts of late to improve things will get more notice than they had before the AGD rankings.

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2010, 09:32:20 AM »
I thought St. Andrews Beach had closed?  How did it make the list (irrespective of its ranking)?
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2010, 09:39:49 AM »
I thought St. Andrews Beach had closed?  How did it make the list (irrespective of its ranking)?

It has re-opened as a public course.

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2010, 09:53:27 AM »
I thought St. Andrews Beach had closed?  How did it make the list (irrespective of its ranking)?

It has re-opened as a public course.

That is great news!

Thanks Scott
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2010, 12:09:03 PM »
Six of the top ten are in or around Melbourne so what are RM doing wrong if the conditioning there is so bad yet not elsewhere locally??
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 12:27:46 PM by Mark Chaplin »
Cave Nil Vino

jonathan_becker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2010, 12:18:42 PM »
Six of the top ten are in or around Mebourne so what are RM doing wrong if the conditioning there is so bad yet not elsewhere locally??

Mark,

You beat me to asking the same question.  I wanna know too. 

John Cornish

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2010, 05:27:11 AM »
Hi Guys,

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Kingston Heath have two bores with a healthy supply of water, hence the condition there is outstanding. It manages to maintain excellent condition throughout the year, regardless of the season. It has survived the drought exceedingly well thus far.

Royal Melbourne (and Victoria GC) by contrast have little in their bores and have suffered as a consequence.

The East course at Royal Melbourne re-opened last week yet the West remains closed, I believe until sometime in March or April. I played with a RM member on Wednesday who tells me the condition of the East is still some way from being acceptable, but it will improve in time. They now have a good supply of water in their dam.

There has also been a good dumping of rain in Melbourne over the past two days, so that will help.

My main criticism of RMW is that the par 5's are little more than long par 4's for many amateur golfers, especially when played downwind or with no wind. Is it the best par 68 course in the world? Undoubtedly!

On the West course, three of the four paddock holes are hardly warranting recognition in the upper echelon of Australian courses, with only the 16th justified in claiming to be a very good hole, IMO. Someone with better knowledge of the course may choose to offer more indepth analysis of the other holes in light of the way they play today compared to the 1920’s when Mackenzie laid out his plans.

Unfortunately, additional length that technology brings has not been kind to a lot of the holes on both courses.

By contrast, Kingston Heath continues to stand the test of time. Testing fairway targets and challenging second or third shots abound and I believe Kingston Heath has been unfairly treated because of lack of profile outside Australia. That has carried over within Australia too. The best player in the world was -14 for four rounds on a 7000 yard course in November. There were no 60's or 61's as have occurred on the composite course.

Having travelled and played extensively through GB&I and the US, I know that Royal Melbourne is the only course in Australia with any international profile (some GCA contributors excepted), and together with the congenial 'Royal' title seems to have historically held RM in the forefront of rater’s minds when their selections are submitted. Let's face it, how many of you can name the course where the Presidents Cup teams tied in South Africa?

Go easy on a newbie!

jonathan_becker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2010, 07:04:05 AM »
Thanks, Josh for the insight and welcome to the DG.

How long has RMW been closed?  Is it all due to playing conditions?


....The Links at Fancourt!  ;D


Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2010, 08:28:02 AM »
Didn't RM get free/cheap access to a massive amount of mains water a fair while ago with a view to fixing the problems?

I don't think blaming the drought carries any water (scuse the pun!). Most of Australia has suffered the same drought RM has and many lesser courses have overcome massive water shortages to keep their courses playable and somewhat presentable.

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2010, 08:52:35 AM »
Hi Guys,

By contrast, Kingston Heath continues to stand the test of time. Testing fairway targets and challenging second or third shots abound and I believe Kingston Heath has been unfairly treated because of lack of profile outside Australia. That has carried over within Australia too. The best player in the world was -14 for four rounds on a 7000 yard course in November. There were no 60's or 61's as have occurred on the composite course.

Go easy on a newbie!


Yeah but he was very distracted at the time! He could have gone lower if he wasn't worried about attending to Rachel.


Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2010, 02:49:53 PM »
Despite Darius Oliver's input into the collation of votes the overall list is not a particularly acccurate reflection of the state of the game down here.
The RM controversy aside - which has garnered an amazing amount of publicity here - there are some numbers that defy logic.


John Cornish,
It is true that the West has really only one par five - the 4th and that is off  the new Presidents Cup tee where I have no chance to carry the bunker and now would play the hole with a 5 iron off the tee followed by a blind 3 iron and then a pitch - but the 2nd and 12th make any list of the top 20 or 30 holes in the country - and IMO at the top half of that list
And for big events there is a really simple way to add about eighty meters to the 2nd west.
I think you under-rate the holes 13-16 on the back paddock - as most do. They may not be the best holes on the course but they are holes any architect in the world would be very happy to design.
16 is the best long 3 in the country - despite Mike Taylor arguing our 17th at RQ is better! - and 13 and 14 are pretty good holes although 14 could do with adding a tee into the space behind. Is 14 any weaker than 2,4 or 13 at KH?
Is 13 much diferent from the much-loved 10th at KH? Certainly it is more difficult.
It is true that Victoria suffered but the new dam and the ability to water has seen the course in fantastic condition this summer - probably the best it has been both architecturally and conditioning wise in many years.

Scott,
The drought argument is not that simple. They have 2 big courses - not one small one in the case of most of the other sandbelt courses - and they chose to stay with a two-grass policy instead of changing to year-round couch grass as all the others did.
With the poa fairways the course was always better than the others close- by in the winter and they helped to keep some length because the ball did not run so far.
My club,Metropolitan  made the change in the 1980s and it has been judged as an outstanding success - but in winter the course plays 500 yards shorther because of the run v no run.
And RM with dornamt couch grass for 3 or 4 months a year would have looked very ordinary. because of the huge expanses of short grass.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Australian Top 10
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2010, 05:34:20 PM »
I've only played 3 of these courses but I can tell there's something wrong with that ranking. Barnbougle is clearly better than Kingston Heath, and St Andrews Beach is better than New South Wales, IMHO.
\

Kind of an odd statement for someone who appears to be using a picture of the 13th hole at NSW for their avatar. Maybe you should be using this one:
Next!