[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrain, help me out. What's a "white line"?

I agree about the views but I think it's more about the immediate periphery of the holes.  Tom has been blessed with sites where all the terra-forming has already been done by God and he can just concentrate on the play areas.  To construct all that from a flat site would cost huge sums of money (just ask Herb Kohler what Pete Dye spent at Whistling Straights).  To be fair, one should also look at the public course Tom did in Colorado or the Texas Tech site to see what the results are if given a "run-of-the-mill" site.

Why is it, especially with the recent run-up (although that's now busted) in UK housing prices, some RE/golf projects didn't happen?  Is there just a different mentality/cultural preference over there?  I mean, do people like living in urban/suburban housing rather than around a golf course?  Or is it just that they don't put any additional value on it the way we do over here?

Tim its just our planning laws. We basically have about 6 categorys, then sub categorys of land designation. If you are in the city (brown belt) then you can build fairly easily, its more a case of agreeing to conditions and the general rules, it does not mean you will automatically get permission ofcourse, its more about harmony with other users and the using or demand on other facilties or services, that land as a general rule might be $1.5M per acre, in London you can times that! Next we have land designated for buildings thats more white belt..hence the white line, in principle you can build in accordance with a rough scheme (structure plan) that the local council might think fit, land might be $750,000 per acre, you need to factor services might not be there or perhaps no roads. We then have farmand or open countryside and green belt, areas of outstanding natural beauty and SSSIs Sites of Special Scientific Intrest, you got more chance of building a course in Central Park in these zones, athough strangely many golf courses are themselves SSSIs. AONBs are very difficult, they might involve limited land cultivation or worse, sometimes the restrictions of planning mess the financials of the project. Green Belt is a classification that exists around about 20 cities in the UK, the idea is to protect two cities say Liverpool and Manchester from merging, the Green Belt designates land that must remain open in character. Good news is that recreation, so Golf is allowed, but its very difficult to get buildings and more recent legislation, followed by ministerial rulings mean that 'the clubhouse must be limited in size and provide faciities for the playing of the sport' that means no snooker rooms, no pool and it was even argued by the council No PRO SHOP, NO FOOD and NO BEVERAGE. I was involved with the appeal and we won some ground but there is no way you willl get a room in a cubhouse building unless you can justify it belongs to golf. There is very little chance of any residential building in the Green Belt. Its highly unlikely that you will get permission for residential buildings unless it is 'infill' ie between other properties anywhere outside of Brown/White Bellt. Its just our laws, hence the sky high land price.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Archies - it is often said that the sign of a great architect is not so much that he can make a great course on a great site but that he can make a great course on an ordinary site. Comments?

I can imagine that there will be quite a lot of work for British architects when a golf ball, straying from a British course causes a fatal car accident or kills a baby in its pram. There are quite a number of courses around here where that is possible. The obvious example of such a necessary rebuild is the new hole inserted into the round at Lindrick to remove a hole that ran parallel to a very busy main road. At Ringway you are obliged to record in a book any ball which has been hit outside the course boundary. On the 18th you are forbidden to play your tee shot if you can hear any vehicle. At Wilmslow we have three consecutive holes, 7-9th, which run alongside a minor country road, perfectly in range of my left-hander's slice. The congestion caused by the construction of the Alderley Edge by-pass has meant a huge increase of traffic along our minor road, trying to avoid said congestion. It would be a major rebuild that would result from my injudiciously hit slice.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Mark - I think its easy for anyone to discover a hole on a great site but getting the right mix of holes, sacrificing something to make a better sequence is the skill to getting a good routing on the better canvas sites, taking time, trial and error and just walking just like they did 150 years ago. Getting a best out of any piece of land is the best you can do, that might be a course on 85 acres or creating something that will really look something in 30-40 years. A lot of mine are from perfectly flat fields but by using a inert landfill you get some modelling clay to add some contouring, some might call it fake, others might not notice, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and if I did not tell you you might not know that xxx course was a landfill site for 5 years...its the end result but you will never beat great sites and that coastline at PB... whats it worth?

You might be right about a bumper amount of redesign work one day if H & S issues start to pinch. Many years ago Fred Hawtree rang me and asked me to look at Worlebury GC, the club had problems with a road and the insurance company were no longer prepared to insure them. Fred had given them advice and the club were not over happy and I think Fred was fed up basically so said to the cub.. go get someone else (politey). My advice was pretty much the same as Fred's, there was no nice compromise unfortunately. Insurance headaches will end up closing down holes, a ruling by a judge that 100 yards between fairways is required for safety could be disaster, but they are very real modern scenarios in this age of accident claim. The real headache is when the insurance company wont cover you. Whilst this might give archies a job it wont be a nice job, rehashing golf courses to new H & S guidelines.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Adrian, That would, I guess, be particularly difficult on one of those narrow, out-and-back sites. And they occur inland as well as on the Ayrshire coast.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Adrian, What are the best courses that have been built on absolutely flat land? Two of the best that I can think of are New Zealand and Royal Antwerp.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Mark - I am not really familiar enough to say... defining flat is toughish

[Jonathan Davison]

Mark
We have just finished a project in Prague on a flat site, maybe a metre difference over the site, and we have another project in construction in Warsaw which is the same 1metre difference over the whole site.
We have had to move some dirt on both projects for a number of reasons, 1 - high underground water tables  2, to create some interest.
It would be nice to move no dirt and find the holes within the landscape, but unfortunately we are a young company and have not had this opportunity yet.
I am not saying both projects are great compared to your examples, but we are happy that we have created something different on both projects. I think one of the problems of Contemporary British Architecture is that nobody does or has done something different. Maybe we are taking a bold risk in what we are doing in the growing golf markets, but we feel the need to break free from the normal.
I am not sure we will ever get the opportunity to design in Britain, but we are enjoying taking the game to new markets.
Maybe Niall will chime in, I know he enjoyed his visit to Prague. Hopefully I will post some pictures of both projects over the next few weeks.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Jonathan, Nice to find that you are working in Poland. I have been there quite a number of times and I always felt that in communist days it was crying out for someone to build a course using only horses and scrapers. In those days few farmers had tractors and they were skilled in working with horses. There were places where you felt a Sunningdale or Swinley Forest could be built with plenty of labour but little mechanisation. I shall be working in Gdansk for a week in July - but nothing to do with golf. My wife will be with me and we may well take the opportunity to visit Cracow and Wroclaw. We might be able to look in on you in Warsaw. I bet it's cold there now!

[Adrian_Stiff]

Mark
We have just finished a project in Prague on a flat site, maybe a metre difference over the site, and we have another project in construction in Warsaw which is the same 1metre difference over the whole site.
We have had to move some dirt on both projects for a number of reasons, 1 - high underground water tables  2, to create some interest.
It would be nice to move no dirt and find the holes within the landscape, but unfortunately we are a young company and have not had this opportunity yet.
I am not saying both projects are great compared to your examples, but we are happy that we have created something different on both projects. I think one of the problems of Contemporary British Architecture is that nobody does or has done something different. Maybe we are taking a bold risk in what we are doing in the growing golf markets, but we feel the need to break free from the normal.
I am not sure we will ever get the opportunity to design in Britain, but we are enjoying taking the game to new markets.
Maybe Niall will chime in, I know he enjoyed his visit to Prague. Hopefully I will post some pictures of both projects over the next few weeks.

Jonathon - Is there any inert landfill about in Poland? Looking forward to seeing your pictures.

[Jonathan Davison]

Mark.
Yeah its cold in Warsaw at the moment, we are just waiting to start construction again once the snow has gone. I will be on site in Warsaw most of 2010 so if you have time to visit our project or any other project, I would be very happy.

The big secret with a lot of Warsaw, its all sand !!! Our project in Warsaw we have 10 metres of pure sand, surrounding the site is Pine trees and heather, not a bad combination.
I looked at site last year, it was a Pine Valley in Eastern Europe !

[Niall C]

Mark
We have just finished a project in Prague on a flat site, maybe a metre difference over the site, and we have another project in construction in Warsaw which is the same 1metre difference over the whole site.
We have had to move some dirt on both projects for a number of reasons, 1 - high underground water tables  2, to create some interest.
It would be nice to move no dirt and find the holes within the landscape, but unfortunately we are a young company and have not had this opportunity yet.
I am not saying both projects are great compared to your examples, but we are happy that we have created something different on both projects. I think one of the problems of Contemporary British Architecture is that nobody does or has done something different. Maybe we are taking a bold risk in what we are doing in the growing golf markets, but we feel the need to break free from the normal.
I am not sure we will ever get the opportunity to design in Britain, but we are enjoying taking the game to new markets.
Maybe Niall will chime in, I know he enjoyed his visit to Prague. Hopefully I will post some pictures of both projects over the next few weeks.

Jonathon

Very happy to chime in and looking forward to seeing the pictures (tell Jeremy to get the website updated !!)

When I was last over the site had largely been shaped and the grow in had started in part, but from what could be seen already there was some great looking holes, a couple of the par 3's particularly stick in the mind together with some big contours in the greens. Definitely somewhere where I would say the architect has shifted a lot of earth to good effect. Hows the second one going ?

Adrian

I went to post last night in response to one of your posts and the bloody computer crashed so I'll try again.

The courses round St Andrews that were mentioned as well as Castle Stuart aren't on sites which are anything like unique. Yes they have views of the sea and they have some elevational changes but that hardly makes them unique in a country with one of the longest coastlines in Europe. The soil profiles of those courses isn't anything special either. What was different about them was that they catered for a different market, and not necessarily an overseas market either but club golfers who enjoy a day trip to a "top" course however you want to define it.

Build it and they will come, I suppose its just a question of getting the numbers right. In that respect, no you wouldn't want to use land at residential prices. But then why would you when you could build a course by the sea with scenery etc and a fraction of the land cost and with a far larger catchment area than with a local course.

Niall  

[Adrian_Stiff]

Niall - I dont know, Caste Stuart was a very nice canvas, with the old castle, the esturary, the hills in the distance, not many sites with views like that. Castle course and the pair at St Andrews Bay virtually touch, I dont know of many new GB courses with sea views at all and some of those views with a glimpse of the old grey toon and priceless. If you got big budgets the soil is less relevant because you could rootzone all the playing areas for £2M.

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