[John Mayhugh]

I also enjoy the idea of sub-greens within greens, in fact, I love them.  I really like the 7th at Crystal Downs and was waiting for someone to bring that hole up.  I see very little similarity between the two holes.  From the front right of the green at Crystal Downs, one can putt it to within a few feet of the back right hole location.  Can someone putt the ball from directly in front of the bunker, all the way around the bunker to a pin directly behind the bunker?

Doubtful.  But there is only 5 or so yards between the back of the bunker and the back edge of the green, so it seems unlikely that the hole would be located there anyway.

With those dimensions, what is the added strategy of mowing the area behind the bunker at green height?

The green is sloped in such a way that you can putt between the bunker and the back of the green as a way to go from one side of the bunker to the other.  Photos and tv don't do a great job showing this.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Nickluas build a course in Hawaii that the Champions Tour plays that has a bunker in the middle of a par 3 green. Also, the Norman Course at TPC San Antonio has a par 3 with a bunker in the middle

[Bill_McBride]

  Why not? Have some fun. Give me SOMETHING. It is all golf. Great for afterround discussion. Not boreing for sure.

  I think I played a Jerry Pate course that had this years before my GCA days. Don't remember much more from the other holes. Memorable.

  Anthony

  t

Anthony, you may be thinking of the 13th green at Tiger Point, just east of Pensacola on the sound.  It had a bunker in the middle of the lower tier of a large two tier green on the par 5 hole.  The bunker was removed in a recent renovation, maybe 5 years ago.

I'm not a big Tiger Point fan either but there are a few good holes.  It was one of Jerry's early efforts.

[Ben Stephens]

Bloody Point (Weiskopf/Morrish) at Daufuskie Island SC has a bunker in the middle of a large green (60 yards long at an angle) on the par 5 18th.

[Mike Nuzzo]

There is a world of difference between the hole at Bayside and the one at TPC San Antonio

length of hole
bank shot opportunities
putting around the bunker
maintenance costs
target customer
number of goofy frilly bunkers 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Can someone putt the ball from directly in front of the bunker, all the way around the bunker to a pin directly behind the bunker?

JC, Why would you ask the above question if you've played the hole 104 times as you indicated in reply # 24

I've played it 104 times in every possible wind direction and it still sucks.

Have you ever played the hole ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

To those who cited "maintainance" as a or the reason why more greens aren't built with a center bunker feature.

Why is maintainance more of a problem with the bunker in the green on # 6 at Riviera ?

Incrementally, how much more ?

[JC Jones]

Can someone putt the ball from directly in front of the bunker, all the way around the bunker to a pin directly behind the bunker?

JC, Why would you ask the above question if you've played the hole 104 times as you indicated in reply # 24

I've played it 104 times in every possible wind direction and it still sucks.

Have you ever played the hole ?

Pat, look up to see my reply.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Can someone putt the ball from directly in front of the bunker, all the way around the bunker to a pin directly behind the bunker?

JC, Why would you ask the above question if you've played the hole 104 times as you indicated in reply # 24

I've played it 104 times in every possible wind direction and it still sucks.

Have you ever played the hole ?

Pat, look up to see my reply.

I did, and it conflicts with your question.

If you've played the 6th hole a great number of times, as you indicated, you wouldn't have to ask the question about how the green putts from one location to another. 

Repeated play would have provided the answer unless (a) your powers of observation are totally lacking (b) your memory is failing. (c) both.

So, I'll ask you again,  have you PLAYED the hole ?  A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.

[JC Jones]

Pat, when I said look up, I meant litereally, bend your head back and look up.

[Bill Rocco]

I don't know if anyone brought up this point...if you hole out from the bunker on one of these holes it is considered a 2 stroke penalty since it is in the green. Penalize a great shot? Does not sound like right to me.

[Michael Rossi]

I don't know if anyone brought up this point...if you hole out from the bunker on one of these holes it is considered a 2 stroke penalty since it is in the green. Penalize a great shot? Does not sound like right to me.

Please explain this further.

[Bill Rocco]

Hi Mike,

A ball striking an unattended flagstick (in the hole) from a shot being played from the green incurs a two-shot penalty (stroke play) or loss of hole (match play). See Rules of Golf 17-3(c). This bunker is considered in the green....

[Michael Rossi]

Thanks Bill

[Michael Rossi]

So then could a player mark his ball in this situation, repair the ball mark and ground his club? If this area is now part of the green it is no longer a hazard?

Are you sure?

[Alex Miller]

Hi Mike,

A ball striking an unattended flagstick (in the hole) from a shot being played from the green incurs a two-shot penalty (stroke play) or loss of hole (match play). See Rules of Golf 17-3(c). This bunker is considered in the green....

This bunker may be surrounded by the green, but a bunker is by definition not the green. Like all other bunkers you cannot ground your club in this one, making it a hazard and therefore not green. No penalty for holing out with the flag in. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Hi Mike,

A ball striking an unattended flagstick (in the hole) from a shot being played from the green incurs a two-shot penalty (stroke play) or loss of hole (match play). See Rules of Golf 17-3(c). This bunker is considered in the green....

Bill,

You are INCORRECT

Please reread the definitions section of the Rule Book

[Patrick_Mucci]

JC,

I'll take your answer as a definite NO, that you haven't played the hole, unless you specificallly declare otherwise.

[Ben Sims]

I have played the hole.  Once.

I liked it.  But I'm a sucker for quirk.  And I damn sure wouldn't bitch and moan that it's unfair that there was a bunker between my ball and the hole.  Mr. Robin and I rolled a dozen or so balls proving the validity of the two putt on said green.  I'll be playing Norman's new one in San Antonio soon (maybe this weekend) and I'm interested to see if it has the necessary contour to make it a good hole. 

Use your imagination and pay attention to the contour, the bunker positioning and you'll see an Eden hole. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,

If you don't mind spending the man hours then the maintence isn't such an issue, but everything, including raking, adding new sand, mowing the surrounding grass, and keeping junk out of it, are all going to be done by hand.

.....and unless you create a local rule prohibiting it, divots on the putting surface.

[Paul Jones]

A bunker by definition is a hazard.  I played the hole once and liked it because it was different.  If every par 3 on the course had a bunker in the middle, I would have thought otherwise.  If every course I played had one, I probably would not have like it or not like it as much.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

If you don't mind spending the man hours then the maintence isn't such an issue, but everything, including raking, adding new sand, mowing the surrounding grass, and keeping junk out of it, are all going to be done by hand.

Jim,  If they already mow by hand, that wouldn't be an additional task.  The same can be said of the bunkers.
       I don't see why keeping junk out of that bunker would be any different from keeping junk out of the flanking bunkers.

.....and unless you create a local rule prohibiting it, divots on the putting surface.

That would certainly seem to be an issue.

But, since the green seems to have survived pretty well over all these years, is it a substantive issue ?

Does anyone know the current rule ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ben Sims,

That's an interesting thought.

The "Eden" hole ?

One could also imagine the "Road Hole" bunker and play to the green as well.

I wonder if either of those two holes/greens/green surrounds were the inspiration for # 6 at Riviera

[Ben Sims]

Mr. Mucci,

The line of thinking isn't indigenous to my type-A brain I assure you.  My host at Riviera presented a pretty convincing case for it.

Most notably that the center bunker is The Strath bunker, and the slope on either side of it is the patented back to front Eden slope.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ben,

Is there anything in Thomas's writings that alludes to either the Eden or Road Hole bunkers as the inspiration for the donut hole bunker ?

I can visualize it, but, it would be neat if there was a reliable reference to it from Thomas

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