The History of Pocono Manor

[Mike Cirba]

Since Jordan Wall started the thread on Pocono Manor yesterday, I’ve received a number of requests for a copy of the history of the course I put together so I thought it might be helpful to just post it here.   I’m hopeful the formatting works correctly.

Much thanks goes to Wayne Morrison for the two William Flynn drawings at the end of this document (the second being today’s unique drop-shot 7th hole, which was originally a bit longer as drawn), and to Mark Fine, for providing me with a copy of the drawing of the original nine holes.

[Mike Cirba]

I should note that since I wrote this a few years back, evidence has surfaced of Ross's involvement in course architecture in PA at Philadelphia Cricket Club and others  prior to 1916, but still no evidence related to any involvement with either nine at Pocono Manor.

[Mike Cirba]

I should also note that the adjacent lots to the original course shows the name of the landowners, and two of the prime locations right near the clubhouse 9th green were owned by Samuel Allen and Walter Smedley.

[mike_malone]

 It sounds to me like we need a gca outing there. I haven't been there since the early 80's ( come to think of it, what happened since then!).

[Mike Cirba]

Mike,

There have been no changes to the course since the 1980s, despite a number of Master Planning efforts.

Funding has been an issue, and the loss of casino gambling there to Mt. Airy squashed more ambitious plans.


That's either good or bad depending on one's perspective, I guess.

[D_Malley]

the hole listed above as the 5th is currently the 9th
and the hole listed as the 3rd is currently the 7th

also it seems that none of the so called "sand pockets" are there

[Jordan Wall]

woops....just posted that to the other thread without seeing this one. 

Great write up though, Mike, and thank you for your help!

[Tom MacWood]

I think I may have just solved you mystery - those drawings are Ross's.

[Tom MacWood]

How do you know these plans were produced by Flynn?

[Joe Bausch]

Mike, here is some early info on Mount Pocono which you may not have (from the July 21, 1901 edition of the NY Tribune).  Who was this Pierce guy?  I'm not familiar with him.

[Mike Cirba]

Mike, here is some early info on Mount Pocono which you may not have (from the July 21, 1901 edition of the NY Tribune).  Who was this Pierce guy?  I'm not familiar with him.

Joe,

Please just burn this article.

You should know from reading GCA that Nobody in those early days was called an "expert" unless they were 1) a Foreign pro who "designed" golf courses, sometimes several in a day, or 2) anyone not from the Philadelphia area who might have experience as a pro or amateur living on a swampy golf course when bunkers were added. 

This course didn't last long, apparently.   I don't know who Pierce was....perhaps he was HH Barker or William Robinson's caddie? 

I'm about 98% certain it was replaced around 1903 with a Walter Travis course whose remains are known today as Mount Pocono GC at the intersection of Routes 115 and 940, and which features literally the most dangerous hole on earth, which I posted about some years back on a thread about dangerous holes.

So, get burning....put all the William Evans and Joe Bunker ones on the pile too...

Tom MacWood has decreed from on-high that they are all not worth the paper they are written on, and since he knows everything about every golf course on the planet we need to listen to his omnipotent law.   Besides, it might help melt some of this snow. 

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Third time is a charm....how do you know the drawings are Flynn's?

[Mike Cirba]

Mike
Third time is a charm....how do you know the drawings are Flynn's?

Tom,

Well, the individual hole drawings were in Flynn's files along with a map of the routing of the nine holes, indicating the proposed lots for sale along each of them.  

I can remember a night with Wayne and Tom and Ron Forse and Jim Nagle there when these first got pulled out after years of mystery about Pocono Manor....voila!    We also found Concord CC near Philly that night, formerly  known as Brinton Lake Club which I had played in high school years and years ago and recognized from the hole drawings.

Either this is a William Flynn drawing of Pocono Manor or Donald Ross also designed Kittansett and Cherry Hills!  

[Tom MacWood]

The style of the drawings are not the same. The Pocono drawing features mounding around each of the bunkers. The other two do not. The other obvious difference, the other two drawings have Flynn's name on them. What is the date on the Pocono plans? In 1920 wasn't Flynn primarily a construction man?

[Mike Cirba]

The style of the drawings are not the same. The Pocono drawing features mounding around each of the bunkers. The other two do not. The other obvious difference, the other two drawings have Flynn's name on them. What is the date on the Pocono plans? In 1920 wasn't Flynn primarily a construction man?

Tom, Tom, Tom.....

My lord, you're incorrigible.

Do you see that interrupted fairway on the Cherry Hills drawing.   They were a Flynn favorite, even if truth be told I don't like 'em much.

Tomorrow, if you'd like, I'll post one from Pocono Manor that is virtually identical.   I just don't have it on this computer.   

I just don't understand why you feel you'd rather be right than accurate...I think a lot of us could do a lot more together than separately, but that's your call.

[Tom MacWood]

In the early 20s wasn't Flynn primarily a construction man, constructing courses like Westchester, Burning Tree, Chevy Chase, and PV for Travis, Alison and others?

What is the date on those Pocono drawings?

[Mark Molyneux]

Understanding that in all likelihood, Ross did not design the Manor's East course and having read that maybe the idea gained traction when Ross was in the Pocono region with his Buck Hill project, I'm trying to digest what I just read in my copy of A Chronicle of the Philadelphia Section PGA and its Members by Pete Trenham. Pete lists Robert White, first president of the PGA of America, among his "legends" in the section 1895 to 1915. He talks about White as the "professional and greenskeeper... at Shawnee in 1914." Later Trenham asserts that during his career, White "... designed a number of golf courses including Buck Hill GC, Berkleigh CC, Skytop GC, Water Gap GC, Green Hills GC, and Glen Brook." The author notes that White was one of the founding members of the American Society of GC Architects. I've read elsewhere that Ross only modified nine existing holes and built a second nine circa 1918. I really can't believe that Ross hit the Pocono region until the Manor had been in operation for five or six seasons. I'm coming to accept that Ross's influence in the PA mountains is limited to his 9 at Buck Hill and Elkview, further to the North.

[Tom MacWood]

I really can't believe that Ross hit the Pocono region until the Manor had been in operation for five or six seasons. I'm coming to accept that Ross's influence in the PA mountains is limited to his 9 at Buck Hill and Elkview, further to the North.

Are you referring to the first nine or the second nine at Pocono?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Why do you want or need to pigeon-hole these guys?   Wilson was only a construction and grass guy...Flynn was only a construction guy.

Philly newspapers called Flynn an architect of note by the mid teens.   Wilson.....did a hell of a lot more work than anyone ever thought or understood prior, at least until guys like Joe Bausch and Wayne Morrison uncovered the details. 

You really need to get past your own personal myths and predispositions, not to mention whatever strange bias you've developed around work that took place in and around Philadelphia.   You don't need to like the modern messengers to accept the message, but again, it's your call.

[Tom MacWood]

Philly newspapers called Flynn an architect of note by the mid teens.   

I'd like to learn more about that. Can you share those newspaper reports?

[JESII]

The style of the drawings are not the same. The Pocono drawing features mounding around each of the bunkers. The other two do not. The other obvious difference, the other two drawings have Flynn's name on them....

Tom,

I'm curious about this post...specifically the part where you say the drawings referenced were not done by the same person. Are you trying to do anything other than get Mike going? Of the statements made on this board since I've been around, that one seems the most blind if it's actually supposed to be taken seriously.

[TEPaul]

"In the early 20s wasn't Flynn primarily a construction man, constructing courses like Westchester, Burning Tree, Chevy Chase, and PV for Travis, Alison and others?"


Not really. In the early 1920s Flynn was pretty much just a glorified greenkeeper. Later in the 1920s he did a bit more drawing but apparently just as a hobby and some say he dabbled in golf course architecture but you should probably take that story with a grain of salt. Some think he designed a world class couse in Southampton Long Island called something like Shinnepecker but the truth of it is that course was really designed by some young guy by the name of Dick Wilson who they say drank too much and claimed he worked for a world class architect by the name of Flynn.

And I would be most interested to know what exactly Travis designed at Pine Valley that was built. That would be great to know and secondly what was it that Flynn constructed for Travis at Pine Valley? Could you fill us in on that one in some detail?

Now that you're on a roll could you possibly tell us what exactly Willie Campbell ever did at Myopia? The club is just dying to know ever since you first informed everyone he was one of the best architects in the world at the time.  

[Tom MacWood]

Jim
I'm just interested in getting to the truth.

The bunkering style of the Pocono plan is completely different than the others - the Pocono drawing has distinct mounding incorporated into each bunker. Was that something Flynn was known for either in plan or in practice?

Do you think the Pocono drawing was a field drawing or one intended for presentation to the client?

TEP
I think he was more than a glorified greenkeeper, but I'd like to learn more about his design activities in the teens because I was under the impression he was a construction man during that time. What was Flynn's first solo design?

Flynn constructed Westchester with Travis, to my knowledge Travis wasn't involved with Flynn at PV, Burning Tree or Chevy Chase.

[Kyle Harris]

I don't undestand why both sides are skirting the issue that the top of the plans are croped off... Why weren't the whole plans scanned?

Issue 2: None of you are good enough to compare drawings. Having seen all the various iterations of Flynns HVCC drawings... They vary in detail and scope... With and without mounds around the bunkers, etc.

[Mike Cirba]

Kyle,

That's the whole drawing.