early photos of Philmont North (now a 3rd Willie Park attribution!)

[Kyle Harris]

So what's the over/under for the article saying that Hugh Wilson brought is new good buddy William Stephen along with him to design a little 9 holer for the Apple Tree Gang up in the Bucks County seat?

Kyle?   What?

This one is even too obscure a reference for me! 

Doylestown CC

[Mike_Cirba]

Hmmm...have you come across anything to suggest that?

[Kyle Harris]

Hmmm...have you come across anything to suggest that?

Nope. Pure speculation based on the timing, Wilson's involvement with other courses and the look of the original holes. Let's just say it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the original 9 there was more Wilson than Flynn.

[Mike_Cirba]

I used to live near there, but never had the opportunity to play it.   Wasn't Harrisburg CC around the the same time for Flynn, so we know he was already designing? 

[Kyle Harris]

I used to live near there, but never had the opportunity to play it.   Wasn't Harrisburg CC around the the same time for Flynn, so we know he was already designing? 

Yes, both were 1916. Only 6 of the Flynn holes remain.

[TEPaul]

Guys:

If you all  want to get into that kind of "full-boat" speculation why don't you just start a thread entitled?

"Did William Flynn do ANYTHING in golf architecture between 1912 and the end of 1924 WITHOUT Hugh Wilson's design assistance?"

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

It ain't me speculatun'!     

[TEPaul]

And yes, Harrisburg and Doylestown were around the same time for Flynn and very early in his design career. Perhaps for that reason those are two of perhaps only 3-4 courses that we have never found anything or much in the way of any drawings or plans by Flynn.

[tlavin]

In light of the multiple threads about the questioned provenance of several of the Philadelphia clubs and the amazing amount of interest/heat they have provided, I hereby make a motion for the appointment of a Philly architecture czar, who would be granted CSI-like powers to solve, with finality, these hair-raising issues.

Is there a second?

[Joe Bausch]

As long as you don't make Moriarity and MacWood co-czars, I cool with it.   

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Anyone hear any  feedback from Philmont as to a public change to a Park or Park/Strouse attribution?

[TEPaul]

I believe they are pretty cool with it, Steverino.

It's been some years since some of us were involved with this architecture attribution thing on Philmont and back then I do remember asking their go-to guy if any old club records, pay records, board meeting minutes etc still exist. I think he told me the club doesn't have them anymore but seeing as their clubhouse is still standing perhaps the club ought to run another really comprehensive internal search. In my opinion, that kind of original actual club documentation is the type of thing that can tell the real story and hopefully in detail.

[Joe Bausch]

(restarting this thread with 'new' info)

Apparently 12 of 18 greens at the North course of Philmont were redone in 1925 with creeping bent.  Around the same time the new Marble Hall layout was getting going and was done "wall to wall" in creeping bent (see a thread I just started recently entitled ""U.S. Experts Evolve New Wonder Grass").  And MH was a Flynn course. 

It is easy to see how Philmont got labeled a Flynn course, though it originated as a Park design.

[JSlonis]

I'll ask the question again that I asked last year at this time.  Have the powers that be at Philmont given up the notion yet that their course is a Flynn?  It's not as if Willie Park was some nobody, it should be proudly received by the club.  I know a friend of mine at Philmont was one of the guys that got the original Flynn Cup together, maybe they don't want to give up their spot at the table.

[Bob Harris]

No.  I know that Steve Shaffer had spoken to Andy last year, and it doesn't appear as if the club has changed its position.  On the Golf Assoc of Philadelphia  website, Flynn is credited with the North course and Park the South.  On their site, which has recently been updated, it reads:
Our world class Championship golf facilities are designed by world-renowned golf course architects William S. Flynn and Willie Park.

[Mike Cirba]

Bob,

That's probably residue from the long-stated belief that the North Course was designed by William Flynn and the South Course designed by Willie Park, so they did have Park as part of their heritage for a long time...just on the wrong course!  

It was only in recent years, and probably through GCA research as I recall, that it was learned that local pro John Reid did the first nine of the South course in 1907, that the course was expanded to 18 in 1909 by Reid and one Oglesby Paul (no, not related ), and then in the years 1914-1916 the course was significantly changed, bunkered, and revamped (2 new holes created) by Green Chairman Henry Strouse with Hugh Wilson of Merion.    The Gordon's made changes in the 1950s to accommodate a driving range, leading to two new holes, replacing two originals.

Based on everything we know, the North course could fairly be called a Henry Strouse/Willie Park Jr. design based on a Willie Park's routing as interpreted by Strouse in the field.   I believe the Gordon's also did work in the 50s.

Despite oodles of articles and research, still no hint of Mr. Flynn ever doing work at Philmont, but some great legacy nonetheless.  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I have forwarded Ran's interview with Wayne Morrison on Flynn to some friends at Philmont and I'm sure Andy Karff has seen it by now. The last I heard he was sticking with the Flynn attribution based on "oral history."  This is very similar to the North Shore situation with Tillinghast, only it appears that the new owner of North Shore may now be willing to acknlowledge Raynor.

[JSlonis]

I have forwarded Ran's interview with Wayne Morrison on Flynn to some friends at Philmont and I'm sure Andy Karff has seen it by now. The last I heard he was sticking with the Flynn attribution based on "oral history."  This is very similar to the North Shore situation with Tillinghast, only it appears that the new owner of North Shore may now be willing to acknlowledge Raynor.

Reminds me of the game where you tell someone something and have them pass it down the line.  By the end, it is usually not the same as when it started.  From all the written evidence to the contrary, I can't figure why the club would stick to that old point.

[Kyle Harris]

I have forwarded Ran's interview with Wayne Morrison on Flynn to some friends at Philmont and I'm sure Andy Karff has seen it by now. The last I heard he was sticking with the Flynn attribution based on "oral history."  This is very similar to the North Shore situation with Tillinghast, only it appears that the new owner of North Shore may now be willing to acknlowledge Raynor.

Reminds me of the game where you tell someone something and have them pass it down the line.  By the end, it is usually not the same as when it started.  From all the written evidence to the contrary, I can't figure why the club would stick to that old point.

Purple Monkey Dishwasher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acRnigpauiE

[TEPaul]

Kyle:

On this website one does not have to pass information down some line of people. All one needs to do on here is pass info on to Tom MacWood and he pretty much automatically deems it wrong somehow and turns the whole subject into a "Purple Monkey Dishwasher" on his own, particularly if it has anything to do with Philadelphia architecture or architects.