the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....

[jeffwarne]

Rich,

You make a good point.  I heard however that the gorse has been on the coast in southern Oregon for a very long time.  It has become a nuisance and would be almost impossible to remove at this point.

I am glad to see that a lot of gorse have been removed. I wish they would go further and remove ALL gorse and replace them with native grass and shrubs.

I understand planting non-native grass for playing condition purposes, but I just don't see any reason why you need to transplant abnoxious weed like gorse (just so that you invoke Scotland). It is just out of place in Oregon, and there are many beautiful species of native plants that can serve the same strategic needs.

How far back are we going if we want to just have native plants?
The rocks and algae in the big bang theory?
The resort didn't plant the gorse-it's been there a long time.(in human terms)

The gorse is beautiful and gives the place a great feel.
No doubt periodically it need to be cut back, in some cases dramatically, to be managed.
Sure it looks a bit stark soon after pruning and removal, but no doubt it will come roaring back. (and need to be managed again)

In general terms,(and not just Bandon) I do agree with Joe's point though that going back to the way a place looked at opening is not always the desired goal, OR the original architect's intent, who surely would've allowed for maturity and growth .

Funny how some would defend  an unplayable, ball eating weed like gorse(that grows back quickly), yet cheer when a 70 year old mature, limbed up tree with playable surface underneath is eliminated.

[Richard Choi]

How far back are we going if we want to just have native plants?
The rocks and algae in the big bang theory?
The resort didn't plant the gorse-it's been there a long time.(in human terms)

No need to go all the way to the Big Bang. I think going back to the last major climate change would be good enough (about 10,000 years ago).

Gorse is identified as "obnoxious weed" by Oregon which crowds out native plants and disturbs the delicate ecosystem. Just because people around the turn of the last century were clueless about invasive species is no reason to be ignorant today.

[Anthony Gray]

  Give me the gorse. No way it will cause the town to burn again. Love the look. Feels like golf.

  Anthony

[Kalen Braley]

I'm very much inclinded to agree with Richard on this one...its nowhere close to being a native species. Claiming gorse is native to Oregon is like saying eucalyptus trees are native to California.

On a related note, I'm surprised GCA'ers are such a big fan of gorse in general because it effectivly plays no different than OB as a lost ball is all but guaranteed if it goes into it. This seems especially odd in light of many here being against trees because they limit recoveries, intefer with play, can result in lost balls, etc.  Gorse seems to be just about the worst plant one could find on a golf course, even if it just happens to be apart of the game due to the country it was invented in.  Plenty of other old timing features on golf courses have become obsolete like cops, square bunkers, high mounds near greens, etc and it gorse should be included in this list IMO.

[Anthony Gray]

I'm very much inclinded to agree with Richard on this one...its nowhere close to being a native species. Claiming gorse is native to Oregon is like saying eucalyptus trees are native to California.

On a related note, I'm surprised GCA'ers are such a big fan of gorse in general because it effectivly plays no different than OB as a lost ball is all but guaranteed if it goes into it. This seems especially odd in light of many here being against trees because they limit recoveries, intefer with play, can result in lost balls, etc.  Gorse seems to be just about the worst plant one could find on a golf course, even if it just happens to be apart of the game due to the country it was invented in.  Plenty of other old timing features on golf courses have become obsolete like cops, square bunkers, high mounds near greens, etc and it gorse should be included in this list IMO.

  Its scotish.

  Anthony

[Pete_Pittock]

This gorse came from Ireland. George Bennett, an Irishman, named Bandon after his home town and imported the plant to give it that home-town feel.

[Richard Choi]

On a related note, I'm surprised GCA'ers are such a big fan of gorse in general because it effectivly plays no different than OB as a lost ball is all but guaranteed if it goes into it. This seems especially odd in light of many here being against trees because they limit recoveries, intefer with play, can result in lost balls, etc. 

Kalen, I could not agree with you more. It seems to me there is high level of hypocracy going on if you condemn water hazards but you advocate gorse as they are one and the same in play. Plants like gorse slows down play unnecessarily and make it impossible for you to follow rule of golf (since you lose it, you need to go back and re-tee/re-place and how many people do that during a regular round?).

I would be thrilled if Bandon got rid of every last bit of gorse just from the architecture stand point.

[Jed Peters]

I just want to say that I hate that hole.

Thanks.

Jed

Why?  It's the best #5 hole at the resort? 

Agree that it changes the look of the hole, which is what really got into my head.  If it opens it up too much then it really does change the playing options, to it's determint. 

I've played it probably 30 times and nearly always taken a big number on it.

That's why I hate it.

It's more the second shot. I nearly always hit a good drive. I like the tee shot.

The second shot scares the bejeebus out of me.

[Anthony Gray]

I just want to say that I hate that hole.

Thanks.

Jed

Why?  It's the best #5 hole at the resort? 

Agree that it changes the look of the hole, which is what really got into my head.  If it opens it up too much then it really does change the playing options, to it's determint. 

I've played it probably 30 times and nearly always taken a big number on it.

That's why I hate it.

It's more the second shot. I nearly always hit a good drive. I like the tee shot.

The second shot scares the bejeebus out of me.

  Good point. That is why I like the gorse. it is the most demanding second shot on the corse and is needed. Like PB 8, you know you have to go with confidence. You can always play it like a par 5. Not every par 4 has to be reachable in two consistantly (Road Hole).

  Anthony

[Will MacEwen]

I even find the hole pretty challenging if you take it as a par 5 and play wedge wedge in.  It is a narrow strip to navigate on the second shot.

[JohnV]

The gorse will be back, you can't stop it, you can only hope to contain it.  Having first gone there in August of 1998, 9 months before the course opened, I can say there was gorse and lots of other nasty bushes on the right of 5 in the landing zone and all up the left and right sides the last 125 yards or so.  But, there was no gorse in many other areas on the course that now have gorse and in some cases, the gorse was removed, returned and was removed again (the left of #11 is a case in point).

Unless they are planning a continual attack on it on #5, they will be stuck with it forever (pun intended).

I believe the resort is tasked with controlling gorse as part of the permission process in building it.

As for gorse, I hate the stuff when it is anywhere near play, just as I hate OB or really thick, really long grass.

[Joe Bentham]

I'm very much inclinded to agree with Richard on this one...its nowhere close to being a native species. Claiming gorse is native to Oregon is like saying eucalyptus trees are native to California..

Curios what you and Richard think about removing a non native species, gorse, and replacing it with another non native species, European beach grass?

It seems to me there is high level of hypocracy going on if you condemn water hazards but you advocate gorse as they are one and the same in play. Plants like gorse slows down play unnecessarily and make it impossible for you to follow rule of golf (since you lose it, you need to go back and re-tee/re-place and how many people do that during a regular round?).
I would be thrilled if Bandon got rid of every last bit of gorse just from the architecture stand point.

I am a huge proponent of golfers being able to hit it and find it to their hearts content.  And Bandon Dunes resort in general and Bandon Dunes specifically really lets players do that.  The fairways are huge, there is only two forced carries off the tee (and even #16 has a bit of a bailout left) and besides the Pacific there isn't a water hazard on the course.  I started this thread by saying that I was a fan of the gorse removal in general.  If the gorse isn't a integral part of the design of the hole, then by all means get rid of it.  But in the case of #5 I thought the gorse was an important part of what was going on.

I've played it probably 30 times and nearly always taken a big number on it.
That's why I hate it.
It's more the second shot. I nearly always hit a good drive. I like the tee shot.
The second shot scares the bejeebus out of me.

Not to use Jed as an example but his post sums up why the gorse should have stayed.  Jed is a good player and he has struggled with the second shot at #5 for a couple of reasons.  The narrowness (or perceived narrowness) of the last 130 yards is intimidating, knowing if you miss left or right you've most likely lost your ball and the simple fact that the hole plays into the wind most days all add up to big numbers for most of us.  But the biggest reason Jed and others don't score well on #5 is because they are hitting the wrong second shot.  For most of us a lay up is the prescribed play there, knock something up there short of the narrows and play in from there.  Or better players need to flight something lower to keep it out of the wind.  The toughness of the second shot also made players seriously consider the dangerous side off the tee (the left here) to afford the better angle.
As the hole stands NOW it'll be harder to get players to lay up because the penalty for a poor shot won't be as severe, even if the layup would be the percentage play for them.
Like I've said above, I don't think every golf hole should present all or nothing options.  In fact it shouldn't happen more then once or twice a round.  But #5 presented one of those pulse rising moments that are part of the reason we play this game.  And I think the hole and the course aren't as good without that moment.

 

[Scott Weersing]

I don't think I have ever made par on no. 5. I don't think I have hit the green in regulation, even in the winter when it was playing downwind. It will remain an intimidating hole for me because I have never played it well. I need to create a false memory of playing the hole well so I can play it better. 

Joe is right that you could lay up. I have done that many times after hitting a marginal drive. Bogey is better than a double bogey. The no. 5 green is difficult to hold, especially downwind. And if you miss the green, it is very hard to chip on and one putt.

So, will removing the gorse, make the hole play differently? No, not really, It will just be less intimidating with the gorse gone.