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Joe Bentham

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the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« on: February 07, 2010, 12:17:07 PM »
All right, first of all I've been a pretty bid defender of the gorse removal that has been going on over the last couple of years on Bandon Dunes.  I think the back side of Bandon looks great right now, and much of that can be attributed to the removal of needless gorse.  You can see all most all of the back side of Bandon now standing on 11 tee box, thanks to the removal of a lot of gorse.  But I think they've gone too far recently. 
The standard defense for gorse removal on the resort is..."thats the way it was when it opened."  Fine.  I know and understand that all of the gorse was basically removed from the property before construction.  And when the course opened, it was pretty bare.  My question is this; isn't it possible for golf holes to get better over the years?  Just because it was a certain way when it opened doesn't mean that the evolution of the hole hadn't made it better.  The best example of that for me is #5 at Bandon Dunes:
Not the best pictures, I took them on a loop yesterday.  But you can see my point.  They've removed all of the gorse on the left and right side of the last 130 yards of the golf hole.  Which completely changes the playing characteristics of one of the most recognizable holes on the property.
Please someone tell me WHY?  Oh and don't even get me started on the tree on #18.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2010, 12:18:51 PM »
Do you have a before picture? 

I played there 5.5 years ago and I remember gorse on this hole but I dont have a picture.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Peter Ferlicca

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2010, 01:13:43 PM »
Here are some pics last year during April.  The gorse was in full bloom so you can see quite a difference.








Jeff Doerr

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Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2010, 01:46:51 PM »
OK, I'll bite, what tree on 18?

"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Jim Tang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2010, 02:44:18 PM »
Wow.  The 5th looks bald in those pictures.  That is unfortunate.  Removal of the gorse was probably a good thing on many of the holes, but it looks like they've taken it a bit too far at the 5th.

You said the stated reason for removal of the gorse is an attempt to restore BD to how it was when the course opened.  Could it also have do to with speeding up play?

Scott Weersing

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2010, 02:45:02 PM »
All right, first of all I've been a pretty bid defender of the gorse removal that has been going on over the last couple of years on Bandon Dunes.  I think the back side of Bandon looks great right now, and much of that can be attributed to the removal of needless gorse.  You can see all most all of the back side of Bandon now standing on 11 tee box, thanks to the removal of a lot of gorse.  But I think they've gone too far recently. 
The standard defense for gorse removal on the resort is..."thats the way it was when it opened."  Fine.  I know and understand that all of the gorse was basically removed from the property before construction.  And when the course opened, it was pretty bare.  My question is this; isn't it possible for golf holes to get better over the years?  Just because it was a certain way when it opened doesn't mean that the evolution of the hole hadn't made it better.  The best example of that for me is #5 at Bandon Dunes:
Not the best pictures, I took them on a loop yesterday.  But you can see my point.  They've removed all of the gorse on the left and right side of the last 130 yards of the golf hole.  Which completely changes the playing characteristics of one of the most recognizable holes on the property.
Please someone tell me WHY?  Oh and don't even get me started on the tree on #18.

Can you play a shot from where the gorse used to be on no. 5? If so, then the hole is not the same as it was designed.

 If there are going to remove the gorse, why not remove all the sand too so there is a view of the coast? (a little sarcasm)

I liked no. 5 with the gorse because it looked more like Royal County Down. They should pick one course at the resort that has gorse so that people can feel that there is trouble left and right. I don't mind them removing gorse that is out of play, eg, front of no. 18 tee, right of no. 17 tee, back of no. 14 green, etc., but I think they have gone too far with No. 5.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2010, 03:15:41 PM »
I am glad to see that a lot of gorse have been removed. I wish they would go further and remove ALL gorse and replace them with native grass and shrubs.

I understand planting non-native grass for playing condition purposes, but I just don't see any reason why you need to transplant abnoxious weed like gorse (just so that you invoke Scotland). It is just out of place in Oregon, and there are many beautiful species of native plants that can serve the same strategic needs.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 05:15:08 PM by Richard Choi »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2010, 03:38:58 PM »
Remember - gorse isn't native to Oregon.  In fact, the fire hazard it presents is the reason that the BD resort was allowed to exist in the first place.

I'm thinking that BD is required to keep the amount of gorse to a specific acreage.  Nobody wants the town of Bandon burning down again! (http://www.bandonwesternworld.com/articles/2008/09/30/news/doc48da85c34bd25035446950.txt)


Picture of the post-fire Bandon (1936)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 03:42:42 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2010, 03:43:23 PM »
Wish they would have taken out the mini pits in the fairway or at least made the left side of the fairway a true option before they did this.  The narrow tunnel approach is one of the most intimidating at the resort.  Does this make the shot less intimidating for golfers - meaning how badly is a missed shot punished here without the course.  I can't tell from the photos is that is just dirt and sand where the course used to be or if there is still some scrubby bad lie / lost ball kind of stuff going on there.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2010, 04:06:56 PM »
twas quite a difficult hole before...of course, sometimes a bogey is a very good score
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2010, 04:49:12 PM »
I dont recall the 5th being that cut back when I was there in Oct ?

I reckon it's an improvement

Will MacEwen

Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2010, 05:10:44 PM »
I am glad to see that a lot of gorse have been removed. I wish they would go further and remove ALL gorse and remove them with native grass and shrubs.

I understand planting non-native grass for playing condition purposes, but I just don't see any reason why you need to transplant abnoxious weed like gorse (just so that you invoke Scotland). It is just out of place in Oregon, and there are many beautiful species of native plants that can serve the same strategic needs.

Didn't some Scot or Irishman transplant it back around the turn of the century (1900, not 2000)?

The hole looks kind of scalped now.  I have always played when the gorse is in bloom, and which is always an esthetic bonus.

Jon Nolan

Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2010, 10:29:11 PM »
Have they retained or moved the lateral water hazard margins on the left side of the hole?

Jed Peters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2010, 10:48:50 PM »
I just want to say that I hate that hole.

Thanks.

Jed

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2010, 11:28:38 PM »
Did they rename the hole "The Brazilian"

 :P

The gorse will probably be back in time for the OM opening!

Aesthetically, I prefer it for the gorse. I wonder if removing it has any impact on the dunes moving or the amount of sand that blows across the hole? Figured the course acts as a bit of a barrier/fence from the wind?

Matt Harrison

Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2010, 11:55:09 PM »
While the hole with the gorse much closer to the fairway was much more visually intimidating, the hole is still quite difficult with a very narrow approach.  Gorse off the fairway means a lost ball most of the time, while sandy scruff means you can find your ball, try to play it, and maybe make a bogey or much worse.  Keep in mind that in the summer, when most folks play Bandon, you will be hitting a medium to long iron into the wind to a narrow green, especially when the pin is back.

Having played the hole a bunch of times, I do not think removing some gorse lessens the quality of the hole.

Mark Kinney

Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2010, 11:57:29 PM »
Joe,

I agree most of the gorse removal over the last couple of years has been great, but I too am SHOCKED that they removed everything on #5.  

The strategic element of that hole which made it so appealing for me has now been almost completely ruined.  
There will be almost no penalty for a poor 2nd shot.  There will be no need to propose a layup into a strong north wind, it will be just bomb away!!  Yes, it will still be a difficult hole, but IMO it has lost the character that made the hole so unique.

Also....has there been any more major removals (or planned) ???


Richard Choi,
While gorse is not native to Oregon, it was NOT planted during construction in order to achieve a Scottish look.  Gorse covered the ENTIRE property when Mr. Keiser purchased it.  I'm pretty sure that the fact that gorse covered the property was one of the main reasons that he was attracted to it in the first place.

Joe Bentham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2010, 02:52:56 AM »
I am glad to see that a lot of gorse have been removed. I wish they would go further and remove ALL gorse and replace them with native grass and shrubs.
I understand planting non-native grass for playing condition purposes, but I just don't see any reason why you need to transplant abnoxious weed like gorse (just so that you invoke Scotland). It is just out of place in Oregon, and there are many beautiful species of native plants that can serve the same strategic needs.
Curious as to what you consider native.  As I'm sure you've already read above, the gorse wasn't brought in for the golf course.
A brief history of Lord Bennett's gorse: http://bit.ly/bZ4dUL
As for what they'll replace it with, well European beach grass is also a non native species that is very damaging to the local dunes.
read about that here: http://bit.ly/aCgNjO
I think the gorse, while non native, has earned its place in Bandon.  Its historic ties to the area, aesthetically pleasing nature and usefulness as a golf hazard should all be reason enough to keep it on the golf course IMO.
Wish they would have taken out the mini pits in the fairway or at least made the left side of the fairway a true option before they did this.  The narrow tunnel approach is one of the most intimidating at the resort.  Does this make the shot less intimidating for golfers - meaning how badly is a missed shot punished here without the course.  I can't tell from the photos is that is just dirt and sand where the course used to be or if there is still some scrubby bad lie / lost ball kind of stuff going on there.
The pictures I've posted are of an obvious work in progress.  In no way do they represent what it'll look like even a week from now, let alone a month.   I'm guessing the ultimate thought if for both the left and right side to be beach grass covered dunes.  They've got a lot of work to do, but in the end'll it'll be playable to a point.  But I also think the intimidation factor will be cranked down several big notches.
And the "mini pits" make the tee shot.  If your going right you have to pick the right line for yourself to get over them in the big wind.  And the further right you are the tougher the second shot is, so there is a reward for carrying the humps.  And there is plenty of room left for a tee ball.  It has to be hit well and can't be hooking, but left is good.
While the hole with the gorse much closer to the fairway was much more visually intimidating, the hole is still quite difficult with a very narrow approach.  Gorse off the fairway means a lost ball most of the time, while sandy scruff means you can find your ball, try to play it, and maybe make a bogey or much worse.  Keep in mind that in the summer, when most folks play Bandon, you will be hitting a medium to long iron into the wind to a narrow green, especially when the pin is back.

Having played the hole a bunch of times, I do not think removing some gorse lessens the quality of the hole.
I agree with most of this, most of the time.  But you should be faced with some shots that are discomforting a couple of times a round.  And 5 as it stood a couple of weeks ago was very discomforting.  If you thought trying to pipe a hybrid or fairway wood through the shoot into a headwind on 5 was intimidating and risky, then you could have laid up.  And conversely if you did go for it and pulled it off the level of satisfaction for most of us was pretty high.  I think the changes will alter that moment in the round negatively.
I just want to say that I hate that hole.

Thanks.

Jed
Thanks for your thoughts Jed.


Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2010, 07:13:49 AM »
I just want to say that I hate that hole.

Thanks.

Jed

Why?  It's the best #5 hole at the resort? 

Agree that it changes the look of the hole, which is what really got into my head.  If it opens it up too much then it really does change the playing options, to it's determint. 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2010, 11:07:11 AM »
Joe,

Nice thread idea, interesting stuff.  After reading this it got me thinking.

IF Bandon Dunes really was gorse free when it opened, then wouldn't removing all the gorse on this hole return it back to the original intent of the architect?

Perhaps its more visually interesting with the blooming gorse, but it sure seems to be more forgiving without it.  And no doubt it is a long ball-buster par 4 into the prevailing summer wind, so a little forgiveness is probably what he had in mind.  Someone on the forum must keep in regular touch with David, can they find out?

Joe Bentham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2010, 11:25:02 AM »
Joe,

Nice thread idea, interesting stuff.  After reading this it got me thinking.

IF Bandon Dunes really was gorse free when it opened, then wouldn't removing all the gorse on this hole return it back to the original intent of the architect?

Perhaps its more visually interesting with the blooming gorse, but it sure seems to be more forgiving without it.  And no doubt it is a long ball-buster par 4 into the prevailing summer wind, so a little forgiveness is probably what he had in mind.  Someone on the forum must keep in regular touch with David, can they find out?
There is no question of if Bandon was gorse free when it opened, it was. 
My point is that the golf hole had evolved in to a better hole with the gorse on either side of the last 130 yards.
#5 is the number 1 handicapped hole on the course.  Most players score better playing it like a shortish par 5 (I'm not sure the changes will change that).  And keeping in mind that most all of Bandon Dunes is pretty forgiving, I don't think the 'toughness' of #5 was reason enough to remove the gorse.
So much of Bandon has been changed from David's design that I don't think the reasoning for the changes here where to appease the architects wishes. 

Pete_Pittock

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Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2010, 01:22:02 PM »
I played Bandon Dunes before it opened and also served as a rules official, primarily on the 5th hole at PNGA and OGA events. To my recollection the left side of #5 was always fully mature gorse. The fifth is where I learned how to hit driver off the deck to keep the ball in play. I cannot comment on the state of the gorse when the hole was constructed or designed. Maybe Kidd's team can chime in

Brent Carlson

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Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2010, 01:42:01 AM »
Rich,

You make a good point.  I heard however that the gorse has been on the coast in southern Oregon for a very long time.  It has become a nuisance and would be almost impossible to remove at this point.

I am glad to see that a lot of gorse have been removed. I wish they would go further and remove ALL gorse and replace them with native grass and shrubs.

I understand planting non-native grass for playing condition purposes, but I just don't see any reason why you need to transplant abnoxious weed like gorse (just so that you invoke Scotland). It is just out of place in Oregon, and there are many beautiful species of native plants that can serve the same strategic needs.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2010, 03:14:17 AM »
The fifth is where I learned how to hit driver off the deck to keep the ball in play.
The fifth was the last hole on which I ever hit a 1-iron.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the de-evolution of a golf hole or #5 at Bandon Dunes....
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2010, 07:04:23 AM »
The fifth is where I learned how to hit driver off the deck to keep the ball in play.
The fifth was the last hole on which I ever hit a 1-iron.
The fifth was where I learned that I needed to learn how to hit a driver off the deck. 

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