[Adam Clayman]

Thanx for all the considered responses.

Tom, It does appear that "core appeal" means different things to different people. Perhaps that's another way golf illuminates the individual's character?

One of the memories that was forefront in my mind as I postulated this question was a day, twenty some years ago, when I was with a new golfer. The gentleman was pretty typical in his frustration level until he hit this one shot. It was a most difficult shot from a severe side hill lie to a green 190 yards away.   He executed it perfectly to both our amazement. The look on his face was of total astonishment and I sensed it was the shot that hooked this guy on golf.

Paul, That's a wonderful acknowledgment however, I don't think describing the gca as easy is the distinction I would make. Yes, certainly, having 18 aerial shot testing holes would be too demanding for all levels, without alternative routes to the hole. But, I look at a course like Oakmont since the tree removal, and I bet I would still be able to get around it by playing within myself and still have fun even if I had a terrible driving day. Since I've never been there, it's all speculation. Terribly difficult courses I've played well on are The Stadium at PGA West and Crystal Downs, so that's the source of my speculation.

BTW, The Sunday Morning show on CBS is where I heard the words quoted in the first line of this thread. They came from Gary Marshall who was justifying why he keeps working so much. I mention that because it implies a timeframe that likely was formed back several decades. It had nothing to do with cost or time issues as many have mentioned.

This sport represents the greatest game. It's lure is different for almost everyone. Many are oblivious to aspects that draw others to it. What other game does that? Especially at a game you can't win, only play.

[Mac Plumart]

Ian and Garland...great stuff!!

Ian...your quote "The irony is I now love playing much more than I ever did even though I’m not near as good."  That is awesome!!  I also like your honesty about your feelings relative to your game and how people viewed it and how you thought they viewed you.  I read an article in Golf Magazine (I think it was) and the author (I forget who it was) said that most people get so worked up on a golf course because they think that their fellow competitors are basing their judgement of them as a person based on how well they see you play golf.  And I empathized with that at the time as I felt the same way.  If I played well, I thought that people thought highly of me as a person...and vice versa.  Now I can take a step back and realize how absurd that thought process is.  And if the people I am playing with do judge me as a person based on my golf score...well, let's just say, I need to find a new foursome.

Garland...I LOVE your comments.  When I first started walking golf courses (just a little while back) I could only carry a few clubs with me, so I had to learn to hit unique shots AND I took Melvyn's advice and ditched the laser range finder.  So, I had to hit these unique half shots while guessing distance.  Maybe I dropped a few shots here or there...but DAMN was it fun!!!  So, I am with you.  Play the game the way that you enjoy it.  We don't have to comply with other people's standards regarding golf and what is good and what is fun...as long as it is indeed golf IMO.  The game is meant to be a game and game's are designed to be enjoyable ways to pass time, right?

Anyway, great sutff!!

EDIT...Adam was posting as I was...great post as well!

[Doug Ralston]

You watch the NCAA Basketball Championship, and listen to the team that loses the final game. "Boo Hoo, we lost. We came on only SECOND IN THE ENTIRE NATION(!)". We have encouraged everyone to think if you do not WIN every single competition you are a 'loser'. Is it surprising to see people giving up if they do not 'win' quickly?

Melvyn; whatever happened to that old Brit adage: "Be gracious in victory and defeat and TREAT THOSE TWO OLD IMPOSTERS THE SAME!!"?

If I sound strident it is because I have seen it all my life, this obsession with 'winning'. As a very non-competitive golfer, I have no such problems and would certainly never quit golf over it. Only my advanced arthritis, my diabetes, and my back problems [from work] could and mostly are making me quit. But I haven't given up yet, and as un-American as it sounds, I simply could not care less if I ever win another match. A great course, a great day, a companion with a sense of humor, and thanks again!

Doug
Doug

[Garland Bayley]

...
Melvyn; whatever happened to that old Brit adage: "Be gracious in victory and defeat and TREAT THOSE TWO OLD IMPOSTERS THE SAME!!"?
...
Doug
Doug

Doug,

Do yourself a favor and learn to read and understand Melvyn's posts. He is one of the funniest posters on the site. "Batteries not included." That's hilarious!

[Sean_A]

For those that quit out of playing poorly (whatever that means) be more in love with playing well or to a certain standard than the game itself?  This question isn't meant as a harsh criticism either - just requesting folks dig deeper into their reasons for disillusionment.

I can fully understand folks quiting because of too heavy an investment in time and money that golf requires. 

Me, I play less because my local club was not compelling golf, but I can't at the moment imagine quiting.

Ciao

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

I stopped playing regular golf for about 15 years. I'd play a round now and again during those 15 years, but I was essentially out of the game. I didn't stop out of choice; it was just too expensive to join a club. I enquired at clubs close to my home in Dublin (Ireland) and some were asking for up to €15,000 entrance fee which was non-refundable. I had very young children and getting time to play was always going to be difficult, so forking out that amount of money for the sake of 20 rounds a year was not an option. So, in my case, it was money first, time second.

Most people I've known that have quit golf have done so because they were never really interested in it. Sure, they played most weekends, but there was always something else more important than golf.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Pain and low battery levels.
Suffering being run over by idiots in carts who should know better
Traffic lights on Cart Tracks, multi story cart parks for 200 of the little B-------s.
Watching the boring Mating Dance of the Rangefinder/electronic aids players
Fake courses on crappy land at stupid prices
Still no women in the R&A Club House
The R&A are still in charge
All will change when Maggie gets back in power.

Melvyn

[Mark Chaplin]

Too expensive and takes too long.

Melvyn despite your one man R&A campaign I'd imagine 99% of golfers couldn't give a monkeys who runs the game. Is cricket better run since the MCC lost control of running the sport?

[Doug Ralston]

...
Melvyn; whatever happened to that old Brit adage: "Be gracious in victory and defeat and TREAT THOSE TWO OLD IMPOSTERS THE SAME!!"?
...
Doug
Doug

Doug,

Do yourself a favor and learn to read and understand Melvyn's posts. He is one of the funniest posters on the site. "Batteries not included." That's hilarious!

Garland;

I understand Melvyn's post very well, and for the most part agree with it. He and I see 'eye to eye' on this to a great degree. Only difference is; about golf technology; while I think we must let the Pro Tours run wild with it, I see no reason WE must accept it, or be obsessed with 'winning' such that we chase this chimera all over the economic planet.

Golf, for those of us who do not do it for a living, can and perhaps should be done with a smile rather than with gritted teeth. 

Doug

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mark

Being serious for a moment, and with all due respect to you, may I ask if you have you taken time to chat to 50 or so Captains/Presidents of the Scottish clubs. I have and their opinions in general are far worse that those I have so far conveyed.

I also have my own opinions of the R&A both re the state of the game and what they are doing with (lets call it The Money rather than their money) around St Andrews.

Mark, most of my comments come from observations or conversations with friend and members of clubs throughout GB. Perhaps with my connection people open out more about the nitty gritty  relating to the modern way golf is run. But let me tell you that in Scotland they are not highly respected or liked. So your  99% is a rather misleading and I expect just plucked from the air.

As for a one man campaign, what campaign, certainly I am not happy with their performance and as I have nothing to lose I voice my opinions. Perhaps being able to back up many of my opinions also helps my case. You may note that I have always said that there is talent at the R&A it’s just that they are not in power. 

I want golf to thrive but we need to get our act in order, before we can advise the players what is right or wrong I believe that those in power should first be able and competent to do their jobs. If they dither which is par for the course as far as the R&A have been concerned, then what sort of message is that they are sending out. For good rules to apply we must understand that they will be enforced, but alas there is no money in enforcing the rule books

Melvyn

[Anthony Gray]

The older I get, more and more guys I know quit golf. The primary reasons are:
Death
Injury
illness
Assholes have trouble finding anyone to play with
Sick of not playing nearly as well as they did when they were young
Rather quit than play the short tees
Found a hobby they prefer (fishing)

I know several who would quit tomorrow, if they weren't married.

  This is some of the best wisdom I have seen on here in months. Please post more Jim.

  Anthony

[Melvyn Morrow]

Doug

My take on the Pro game is that it was and should be a reflection of the ordinary game. We should not allow them carte blanche and they should be required to play the normal game that we play every day.

The problem is that our modern Pros believe themselves superior to many of us mortal golfers and expect to be treated accordingly. I do not agree, I feel they should compete on our normal courses and the championship course should be reclassified, but they have been the excuse that the powers that be have used not act in controlling the game.

Just think about it instead of controlling and using technology for the advancement of golf they have used it to the disadvantage of the game, courses and clubs with this constant need to keep extending and modifying our courses. The investment costs followed by on going maintenance cost keeps increasing and who is paying for all this, the Pros, no you bet they are not putting their hands in their pockets, its us the poor ordinary guys who love the game, we are ultimately the pay masters via Greens Fees, purchase of new equipment or the products our heroes endorse.

Control technology for the good of the game and sorry but the Pros are meant to be the professionals, the best in the game so why can’t they relearn how to play the normal game.

They are making money, lots of money out of golf, should we not expect them to play golf on our normal courses or do we really want to see them slowly break away and perform on a super selected courses worldwide which are up rated each year to keep tracking the technology.

Once we split the courses and make only Tournament courses for the Pros, the clock start ticking the countdown to money drying up. All because the Pro’s equipment will be deemed as useless on our normal courses. Sales fall, revenue falls and Oops there goes the Pro Tournaments as the manufacturers can’t afford the R&D let lone the sponsorship deals. So we do need to think and our Governing Bodies do need to grasp the nettle bloody hard and damn soon.

Melvyn

[TEPaul]

"Melvyn despite your one man R&A campaign I'd imagine 99% of golfers couldn't give a monkeys who runs the game. Is cricket better run since the MCC lost control of running the sport?"

Mark Chaplin:

Would you mind filling me in on what you mean by that? Are you suggesting the Marleybone Cricket Club no longer controls cricket?? Please tell me that is not so!  

But if in fact it is please tell me if you think they did a better job of it than whomever runs cricket now.

I need to know this because since I have now quit golf I'm thinking of rejuvenating cricket in Philadelphia and restoring it and its popularity to its former late 19th century glory. I'm even considering designing and patenting the required 21st century uniform dress code.

[Anthony Gray]

  From experience the guys having the most fun are the guys that are not good at it. They don't have high expectations and the take great pleasure in the intangibles golf has. Fellowship..being outdorrs..wearing aful clothes..cigars..etc.

  Anthony R Gray GCA ADD

[Bruce Katona]

When I had the time and could take our daughter to the range at one of our clubs, our instructors all got used to seeing me their with the little munchkin, smacking golf balls before trying to get in some number of holes before going off to Dairy Queen for ice cream.  The range on the weekend is a very dangerous place as balls go in each and every direction (not from the kids but from the members).

What the instructors used to tell me was "Bruce- if I can get John/Jane Q Public to hit 3 good shots he is happy with during a round:
  1. he/she will think I am the best instructor in the world, rave about and recommend me to his/her friends and I'll have a steady student.
2. He she' will be a better member as they are enoying the game....score matters second, having fun is the key.

To this day our daughter enjoys and does look forward to playing golf...she will never be a professional but she enjoys the game for what happens, on the range, playing however many holes we get in and the ice cream on the way home.

[Mike Cirba]

As baby-boomers aged and could no longer play b'ball or even tennis without blowing out a knee or worse, they turned to golf en masse and golf became "cool".

Given the luxuries of a booming, expanding economy, what should be a simple game turned into "entertainment", which garishly constructed eye-popping, visually impactful golf courses being designed faster than the rise of home prices.   Countless magazines were filled with views of these courses from the air, and if there was even a spot not uniformly deep forest green, or cool aqua blue, it was airbrushed to create the imiage of a heavenly playground, or the ultimate backyard garden of eden.

Prices for the game and the equipment to play the game spiralled upwards, as well, where soon one was made that they couldn't effectively compete unless they gave into technological advance, left completely unchecked by the governing bodies, and went out and purchased the latest $599 driver, or a set of irons costing as much as a decent used vehicle.

We played on courses that were largely "riding only", because it evidently didn't make sense to let people walk the 7-12 miles (I kid you not) that the courses were laid out on through housing developments.   Rounds took 5, sometimes 6 hours to play, and one would be "serviced" throughout the round by a flurry of bagboys saving one the herculean task of removing their clubs from the trunk of the car, to cartgirls, appearing multiple times throughout the round to serve up refreshments, and further slowing things to the golf equivalent of the Bataan death march, but somehow seeming preferable to having to pour oneself some drinking water from a cooler as if that act required more effort than should be allowable,

Soon our carts were equipped with electronic GPS, so that we could know that it was exactly 123 yards from one's pine-strewn lie 18 yards deep in the trees to a hole location cut behind a pond and a bunker.

Who can keep up?  

[TEPaul]

"I think there are basically 2 kinds of quitters:  those that got close to the game and fell in love, and those who didn't."



David:

Are there any other kinds?    

[TEPaul]

David:

I think you might be right----I think golf quit me for some reason. And I think I'm more than a little pissed about that and I believe I will consider suing the R&A and the USGA for at least $1 billion in damages for mental cruelty and other blatant discriminatory practices. Do you want to take my case?

[Tommy Williamsen]

For those that quit out of playing poorly (whatever that means) be more in love with playing well or to a certain standard than the game itself?  This question isn't meant as a harsh criticism either - just requesting folks dig deeper into their reasons for disillusionment.

I can fully understand folks quiting because of too heavy an investment in time and money that golf requires. 

Me, I play less because my local club was not compelling golf, but I can't at the moment imagine quiting.

Ciao

Sean, good points.  You state correctly My dilemma.  For forty years I'd go play and knew that most of the time I'd play a certain level.  I loved playing but I also loved playing what I considered well.  Now i have to fall in love with the just  playing. I have good health and can still walk 36 holes for many days in a row. Upon reflection the course does make a difference.  When I play a good course it is easier to get up for it.  When the course lacks either interest or architectural appeal I am less interested and my mind wanders.  Somehow, I need to fall in love with being out with friends or being alone in the beauty of the day.  When you and I played B&B last year, I fell in love wioth the course.  What was disturbing was the way I played.  I never really got to see the course as it was meant to be played.  I enjoyed my time because I had good company but did not enjoy my golf.  All I wanted to do was go out again and see if I could delight in its architectural subtleties. 

[Eric Smith]

David:

I think you might be right----I think golf quit me for some reason. And I think I'm more than a little pissed about that and I believe I will consider suing the R&A and the USGA for at least $1 billion in damages for mental cruelty and other blatant discriminatory practices. Do you want to take my case?

Tom:

Since you're not using it, can we sue somebody to allow for your golf swing to be transferrable upon said quitting!!

[TEPaul]

Eric:

I would be glad to make my swing transferable to anyone who wants it particularly if they are truly interested in hitting a golf ball about 75% as far as their size and strength would indicate. Over the years I've had hundreds of people I don't even know come up to me and tell me my swing is gorgeous particularly in its tempo. I've also had maybe fifty teachers and such tell me if I could just swing at the ball with my practice swing I could undoutedly hit the ball at least thirty yards further. Believe me I've tried everything I can think of but I've never been able to do that when a ball is in front of me. So sure if somebody wants a swing that is essentially slow motion for some odd reason I'd be glad to transfer mine to anyone who wants it.

PS:
I actually think I know why that happened. Generally it's what I call getting "ball bound." My Dad taught me when I was young how to hit the ball straight. For some reason he forgot to teach me what it feels like to hit it hard when the ball is in front of you.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Quite a lot of young people that quit do so because the meet a girl and there are more intersting undulations.

[Steve Strasheim]

PS:
I actually think I know why that happened. Generally it's what I call getting "ball bound." My Dad taught me when I was young how to hit the ball straight. For some reason he forgot to teach me what it feels like to hit it hard when the ball is in front of you.

You might enjoy a little story about my son and I. He went on his first golf trip with me late last summer and had a great time and he really played well. He played so well, I realized that I could not help him anymore. My basic instructions of swing slow to make it go and hit down to get the ball up had run its course.

I took him to a friend who is a golf pro because I realized I could not teach him. Pro tells son he needs to swing faster, as fast as he can. I'm cringing as my kid starts his backswing because I have no idea where the ball will go and I've been trying to teach the kid tempo and smooth. He swings really hard at the ball, fastest swing I've ever seen. With my forhead wrinkling from worry, I look over at the normally emotionless pro and see a big ear-to-ear grin on his face.

At that point, I knew I had done the right thing by calling him.

[George Pazin]

Haven't read anyone else's posts yet, but I think people who quit do so mostly because golf is expensive and very time consuming.

Off to see why Matt thinks I'm wrong...

[Adam Clayman]

Ok then, the architecture has begotten the swing as hard as you can approach. The finesse of shot-making has been lost because it's not needed on these one-dimensional layouts. Either because of the architecture and/or the maintenance standards, post irrigations system everywhere and the viewer's expectations.  


Who was it that mentioned the way layer with disdain?

The Crane/Behr debate seems germane here. Weren't there warnings?
Haven't those warnings been pretty much ignored and the result is the mess we have now?.

Uninspired golfers who care far too much about their score.

 

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