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Patrick_Mucci

What will clubs and architects do
« on: February 07, 2010, 10:39:44 AM »
to make their course more attractive, in order to attract and retain the diminished number of golfers who can afford to join ?

If we accept that few, if any new courses, will be built in the near future, and that the economy and the tax code will be unfavorable, won't clubs have to improve their product in order to attract and retain members ?

If a club decides to improve its golf course, in what form will those improvements manifest themselves ?

Will conditioning improve ?
Remember, many clubs are downsizing, freezing or minimally increasing their green budget in order to avoid dues and/or initiation fees.

Will redesign be the critical element in attracting and retaining members ?

In the Great Depression many features were modified or eliminated to reduce costs.
Will the current situation create a replication, or, will clubs look to enhance the playing experience, vis a vis architectural changes and/or additions.

Will fast and firm flourish, or will lush green conditions prevail

If you were the President/dictator, what would you do to your golf course to attract and retain the diminished number of golfers in the general golfer pool ?

Dan Herrmann

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Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2010, 10:47:24 AM »
Patrick,
The most important factor for me is financial - I just abhor monthly dining minimums.  Cut out the fancy eateries and golfers will find your club.  About 5 years ago, a short-lived GM told our board that his goal was to create the finest dining establishment in the county.  We looked at each other with a "you've got to be kidding" look.

Another factor will be being "green".  Low water use along with good stewardship will be key.  I sure wouldn't want to be a member at a club where overwatering was common.  Golf needs fast and firm to survive.

One more factor - hire nice people. 




Tom_Doak

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Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2010, 10:49:30 AM »
Slash the maintenance budget by 40%, for starters, and inform the superintendent [if he stays] that he needs to be spending his money on greens and fairways first, and tees and bunkers second ... and not much else.

As for architecture, I think most clubs would be crazy to spend a lot of $$ on architecture right now.  If they've got the bones of a great course, and a decent location, that'll be enough to get them through the troubles.  If they don't, an architect is probably not going to save the day.


Mike_Young

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Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2010, 10:56:25 AM »
Pat,
While this site deals mainly in idealistic thoughts..the realistic is that most architects will not be practicing...there will be a few jobs here and there but they will be scattered....for those of us that go overseas....most will be replaced by locals once they feel they have learned what they can learn....so I think architects will have to find other income...whether operating a course, seling RE....  I think some of the old guys sold antiques and grew roses....I might start decorating cakes or something....
As for the courses...reality is that there are not as many golfers and our kids don't care about clubs as much as we did...therefore even when the club manager explains how food and beverage are growing and golf is losing money...OK....close the golf course for two months which will ruin the food and beverage....then fire the club manager that told you golf was a lost cause...hire a tpp golf professional and get back to basics...no five guy cart boy group wiping clubs with a swat....one asst...no shop girls....
The supts will go one of two ways....we all know of cases where a top notch asst supt was sitting in waiting ;D... the top guys will either have to get back in the dirt or get rid of a few assts....or the asst end up being the supt....I sense that we are about to see a lot of asst supts and asst pros take over clubs...and these are good qualified guys....just because of the "Peters Principle"...
But over all maintenance budgets will be cut and that maybe will be firm and fast or less cuts per week or less bunker raking....
BUT whatever happens during this time I feel is going to come more from the expense side because I don't think we can create more players for a while....
Before anyone goes bonkers on this....I am speaking of the average U.S. club in smalltown America...not the famous 25 we discuss here...even though a few of those will get a wake-up call.... ;)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2010, 11:00:34 AM »

Slash the maintenance budget by 40%, for starters, and inform the superintendent [if he stays] that he needs to be spending his money on greens and fairways first, and tees and bunkers second ... and not much else.

Tom, would you DARE to be the first club to cut your green budget by 40 % in an area with a good number of clubs as viable alternatives ?


As for architecture, I think most clubs would be crazy to spend a lot of $$ on architecture right now.  If they've got the bones of a great course, and a decent location, that'll be enough to get them through the troubles.  If they don't, an architect is probably not going to save the day.


Tom_Doak

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Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2010, 11:14:46 AM »
Patrick:

The funny thing is, I'm learning that just around Detroit, there are some clubs spending $1 million on their courses, and others spending $600,000, and you can't even tell the difference between the two.  And obviously the members at the former clubs have yet to discover that their neighbors are doing more with less.

A lot of that $400,000 is being spent on raking bunkers too often, on edging cart paths, on 2 or 3 assistant superintendents, on preventive spraying whether or not it's necessary, on too many heights of cut, etc.  If you didn't do a lot of that stuff, you could cut staff significantly and save a lot of money.

Budgets are not going down because members are afraid their courses will be in terrible shape if they spend less than a million dollars.  If they knew what the course could look like for $600,000, most would vote for the change in a heartbeat.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2010, 11:22:15 AM »
I agrre that I dont think clubs will be considering the architecture too much in their current plans. In the UK we cant slash 40% off the maintenance budget but yes we can trim it a bit. I think keeping the course good is the key thing you need to do to attract golfers and retain the ones that can afford. Pretty much we have worn this one out but the real savings are in the clubhouse and admin areas from a UK perspective.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Bill Gayne

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Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2010, 11:34:52 AM »
The article below from the Irish Independent is very timely for this thread. The economic conditions is much worse than what I see in the United States. Anyway, the new economic reality has set in and with only a few exceptions at the very highest level of Portrush and County Down.

Cold comfort as clubs face up to golf's big squeeze
The recession has given Irish golf clubs a reality check, writes Dermot Gilleece


Sunday February 07 2010

P icture this little domestic scene: beaming husband tells seriously unenthused wife how he's been offered membership of the local golf club for €20,000 followed by an annual subscription of €1,500. "In the current climate, she'd run him out the door, and rightly so," said Declan Branigan.

After a period of largely unrestrained increases in the cost of golf in this country, the industry is experiencing a shuddering jolt into reality. There is even a hollow ring to the well-loved saying in Kerry that committed golfers are waterproof, war-proof and recession-proof.

Significantly, the only leading clubs on the island showing increased green fees from 2008 are in Northern Ireland, which is officially out of recession. Royal Co Down have upped their premium rate from stg£175 to £180 and Royal Portrush has risen from stg£135 to £140. In all other cases, prices are either unchanged or down markedly.

For example, Mount Juliet has dropped from €160 to €120; Killarney's Killeen Course, the venue for this year's 3 Irish Open, comes down from €130 to €90 and Co Louth, which played host to the championship last year, drops from €150 to €120. In terms of quality golf terrain, however, the most dramatic reduction has been at Portmarnock Links, where this year's fee of €50 compares with a whopping €140 two years ago.

"I can't see us ever getting back to those sort of figures," said Moira Cassidy, director of golf at the Links. "We believe our current fee represents really good value, given the standard of what we have on offer here and we've done it to get visitors on the course and into our hotel."

In a buyer's market where the customer has never had it so good, virtually every outlet will be prepared to offer further reductions for group deals, or in some cases, on an individual basis.

Meanwhile, it is interesting to recall that even at the height of the Celtic Tiger, golf tourism remained vulnerable to international events. I remember Dr Michael Smurfit's concern about the possible duration of the Gulf War in 2003, given plans to open the new Smurfit Course at The K Club that year, during European Open week.

As to The K Club's position as the country's costliest golf facility with a green fee of €265 that year, he said: "Essentially it comes down to costs. And I suspect that our maintenance costs are considerably greater than those at The Old Head, for instance. Either way, I would like to think that we'll make an extra effort to deliver value for money."

As it happens, their top rate this year is €280 for the Palmer Course, compared with €350 two years ago.

Branigan, the country's leading agronomist, has been observing first-hand the impact of these straitened times which he sees as two-fold. On the one hand there is the desperate scramble for green-fee revenue in a depressed market and on the other, there are the crippling maintenance costs caused by the elaborate, country-club nature of recent developments.

While acknowledging a place in the market for facilities such as The K Club, Mount Juliet and The Old Head, it is clear that too many developments have been linked to real estate. Inevitably, the collapse in the housing market leaves them facing a grim battle for survival. One such establishment bucking the trend, however, is Mount Wolseley in Tullow, Co Carlow, which retains its relatively modest weekday/weekend fees of €50/€70 for a highly-rated course designed by Christy O'Connor Jnr.

"When we opened back in 1996, we got the last of the Fαilte Ireland grants and I remember thinking at the time that this was the end of golf-course construction in Ireland for the foreseeable future," said Mount Wolseley owner, Donal Morrissey. "I thought we had reached saturation point, and so did the people who were disbursing the grants."

With no bank borrowings, Mount Wolseley's arrival on the scene 14 years ago brought the number of Irish golf courses up to 350. The current number is 426, an increase of 22 per cent. During that period, green fees rose by four times the rate of inflation. In fact, costs on average almost doubled during the short period between 1998 and Millennium year.

"I hate to say it but I think there must be casualties," added Morrissey. "People acted in good faith. They thought they were doing the right thing and who am I to say they shouldn't have done it? According to the Bacon report, the hotel industry is over-supplied to the extent of 15,000 beds. Maybe we should have had a similar report on golf. Either way, it's clear we have a serious over-supply of courses."

The nature of that over-supply, with a fixation on so-called championship standard layouts involving high maintenance, is adding to the problem by as much as €250,000 a year in certain cases, according to Branigan. "I know of three developments that are going into liquidation," he said. "These courses were built at enormous cost without any consideration for what the ordinary golfer actually wanted. Essentially, the average handicap player simply wants a place to play, but if you decide to spoil them, you had better be prepared to accept the consequences.

"From a product that was relatively cheap and simple to deliver 30 years ago, we have luxurious clubhouses where heat and light bills run to €50,000 a year and staff numbers have gone through the roof. And out on the course, you have greens being hand-mown in the mistaken belief of delivering better putting surfaces.

"Hand-mowing 18 greens will take three men a combined total of eight hours, whereas one man could do all 18 on a ride-on mower in three and a quarter hours. And contrary to common belief, a hand-mower is actually heavier per square inch than a ride-on mover. We even have the lunacy of hand-mown tees, for all the difference that's going to make to the average golfer.

"A lot of investors saw golf courses as a licence to print money, without taking the trouble to study the economics involved. Now they're forced to accept that entrance fees are effectively gone, for the simple reason that people no longer have the money. Meanwhile, designers will have to look at more sustainable layouts and players need to accept that the presentation of Augusta National is something to be seen strictly on television and not on their own, modest track." He concluded: "Golf in Ireland is at a crossroads and we need to think long and hard about where we're going."

It is generally the case that regions which have to battle hard for a share of the market in the best of times try even harder when times get tough. This is certainly true of facilities in the North West and West of Ireland which seem determined to be as competitive as possible at this time.

Co Sligo GC has to be seen as excellent value, for instance, at €70, as is Enniscrone at €75, Carne at €65 and Connemara at €55. And I can imagine a strong response to combined rounds at Ballyliffin's Glashedy and Old Links for €100 on the same day and to Strandhill's offer of golf and a meal for €40 on Mondays.

I recall British colleagues of mine reminiscing affectionately about games of golf at remote Irish courses where they left their green fee in a milk bottle outside the locker-room door. While it's good, from a commercial standpoint, that we moved on from those gentle times, much of our current difficulty has to do with a ruinously quick pace of progress.

Now, we can count the cost at our leisure.

Sunday Independent


Philippe Binette

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Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2010, 11:37:55 AM »
Like Tom Doak said, reducing maintenance budget is key:

here are some ideas:

1) No more f***ing petunias
2) No more wall to wall mowing, the 75 yards of rough between the back tee and the ladies tee... why would you mow that?
3) Less water, might means less mowing too
4) ''golf is not about having to tip 4 guys on your way to the first tee'' (B. Schneider), the kid taking your bag out of the car, the other doing this and that... I mean, that's pointless.
When I was a junior, I worked in the bag shop, 36 holes, 400 members + daily fee players, worst setting ever (packed bag shop downstairs) getting the bags out and cleaning the clubs = 1 guy, not 5
5) slow the greens a touch (it also means faster rounds)

hey, that's the way golf is in Scotland !!!


But I believe an architect can do something to help. Maybe not great courses but some weak courses have good potential and it's possible, with a good strategy to improve a course a lot at low cost

Jerry Kluger

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Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2010, 11:44:28 AM »
Pat: First, building new courses today will be very limited in scope as there is no land available near our metropolitan areas.  The problem that many new courses are facing is location - they are not close to golfing public and the next generation of golfers is not willing to drive more than a few minutes to get to their club. There may be a few resort courses built and perhaps a housing complex with a golf course but that will be very limited.  Even here in Washington the new courses are struggling, some were not completed and some are in bankruptcy.  

The clubs that do exist are also struggling and they are drastically reducing initiation fees.  It is important that the clubs keep their costs of operating down.  Higher dues will result in members leaving.  TD makes a point about maintenance but if they see what they believe is a lesser course they will leave.  The fine details can be cut back but it is my understanding that the older courses cost more to maintain.  Another fact of life is that the superintendent's job is on the line and he will do anything he can to maintain the course as he has in the past rather than risk his job.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2010, 12:17:20 PM »

Another fact of life is that the superintendent's job is on the line and he will do anything he can to maintain the course as he has in the past rather than risk his job.


Jerry:

Maintaining a budget which will result in your club closing its doors, is another way of risking your job.  But like many people in the modern economy, some superintendents are not seeing this possibility until it's too late.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2010, 12:31:10 PM »
Mike Young & Tom Doak,

Will the scenario you present result in "IN-HOUSE" architectural changes in the future ?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2010, 12:39:50 PM »
Pat:

Perhaps so.  But there are probably going to be a lot of struggling architects hanging around the superintendents at good clubs trying to be in line for a call when said club thinks they ought to do something.  [In fact, I'd bet there is a ton of that going on in San Diego this coming week!]

Jerry Kluger

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Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2010, 12:40:59 PM »
TD: The country clubs are in tough times because of the amenities other than golf.  You look at the dues versus the cost of maintaining the course and they aren't the reason for the financial drain.  They are, however, the largest part of the budget and therefor the easiest to cut. It's the clubhouse which drains the financial coffers.  They want really good food at very reasonable prices.  The sensible way out is to raise the food and beverage prices.  You don't have to make them dramatic increases but enough to make a difference.  You get done with a round of golf and want to have a beer and a burger, if it costs you one or two dollars more it isn't going to break you but it will dramatically help with the club's finances.  You see the half price happy hours and the place is filled with people who come out just for that - problem is, it is a loser for the club.

Mike_Young

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Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2010, 12:55:01 PM »
Mike Young & Tom Doak,

Will the scenario you present result in "IN-HOUSE" architectural changes in the future ?
Pat,
I also think it is happening...but I think it has always happened..look back over the years....the supt/archie relationship is a very political realtionship...I have seen one guy get in with one supt and go like wildfire thru the clubs of the supt buddies of that one supt.  But no matter what ,the archie business is going to take 100 years to be where it was if ever again....there is no market....the "in-house" changes are going to be supt/builder.green chair changes.....will happen by the supt meeting the local golf contractor at the supt annual meeting...green chair says he worked at this club and this club...and he knows what we need...and the circle goes round again... ;)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 03:58:42 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

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Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2010, 02:19:58 PM »
TD: The country clubs are in tough times because of the amenities other than golf.  You look at the dues versus the cost of maintaining the course and they aren't the reason for the financial drain.  They are, however, the largest part of the budget and therefor the easiest to cut. It's the clubhouse which drains the financial coffers.  They want really good food at very reasonable prices.  The sensible way out is to raise the food and beverage prices.  You don't have to make them dramatic increases but enough to make a difference.  You get done with a round of golf and want to have a beer and a burger, if it costs you one or two dollars more it isn't going to break you but it will dramatically help with the club's finances.  You see the half price happy hours and the place is filled with people who come out just for that - problem is, it is a loser for the club.

Jerry:

I know there's a lot of money lost in other areas.  A couple of weeks ago I was meeting with a potential client who'd just bought a club out of bankruptcy.  They lost a lot of members to the Bernie Madoff mess, but he said they'd also managed to lose $500,000 [that's not a misprint] in the food & beverage operation the year before ... and they'd spent $1 million to build a new pool pavilion two years before that, thinking it would stop the slippage in memberships.

However, I am suggesting that it's entirely possible to maintain a good course in good condition for $600,000 to $700,000, and that many clubs are spending a lot more than that just because they've been told it's essential.

Michael Huber

Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2010, 03:44:22 PM »
I would suggest defaulting on the 1,000,000 loan used to improve the clubhouse. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2010, 03:49:20 PM »
Michael:

The club in question has already defaulted, and been purchased by new ownership.

I was only bringing up the pool issue as an example of how clubs at the brink often do stupid and costly things that they think will attract a few new members.  I've yet to see of a club which deliberately built a new facility and then defaulted as part of their "plan", but, the way things are going, I wouldn't rule anything out.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 03:51:05 PM by Tom_Doak »

Jerry Kluger

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Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2010, 04:10:55 PM »
Tom: I think that if you are going to cutback on maintenance of the golf course then you had better keep your membership informed.  Let's say you cut back 30% on your course maintenance which is a big chunk of money - you have to explain to the membership exactly what is being cut and what will be the effect on how the course plays and how it looks.  The members should be given the opportunity to voice their opinion and if they would rather see the cuts elsewhere.  If it is a country club, then you have to do it in food and beverage because it is the only big ticket item and the only one which all the members use. 

Michael Huber

Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2010, 04:16:19 PM »
Michael:

The club in question has already defaulted, and been purchased by new ownership.

I was only bringing up the pool issue as an example of how clubs at the brink often do stupid and costly things that they think will attract a few new members.  I've yet to see of a club which deliberately built a new facility and then defaulted as part of their "plan", but, the way things are going, I wouldn't rule anything out.

I'm not sure of the exact details, but there is a resort type of a deal near Yellowstone that is suing Credit Suisse or Duetsche Bank or UBS or some  other bank.  The resort defaulted on their loan after about 6th months of operation.  They are suing the bank, alleging that the bank deliberately gave them a loan they knowing it would default so the bank could take control of the resort and so forth.  I read about it in the wall street journal.  It was a pretty interesting situation.

Mike_Young

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Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2010, 04:19:13 PM »
I am a member of an older ODG club that has  had someone "speak" with the ODG and it was voted by a margin of 16 votes out of 800 to spend 6 million on clubhouse/ weight room swim/tennis  and golf course.  All debt.....816 members/had a 1000
We love committees so we have construction/design committee handling things....
we have closed 9 holes  until next Oct. then we will close another 9 until the next October ....USGA greens... loads of cartpaths....and I am sure it will be nice  BUT  as mentioned here..we could have no-tilled and brought the greens back out to the original edges..cleaned the bunkers...had a talk with the supt and been on our way for much much less....
we lost 58 members net last year....and we lose a few each month now....
But when we have the annual weiner measuring with the comm frat boy buddies at the two other clubs they worship...who knows we may win... ;D ;D
Note : this is not to say the work will not be nice but was it needed in this time?  no way....
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 04:20:56 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Charlie Goerges

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Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2010, 05:27:53 PM »
A couple of years back I read that the AVERAGE maintenance budget in the US was about $450,000 or so. That means that for all of those big budgets, there have to be a ton of courses at like 100,000 or so. And you'd have to bet that most of those really low numbers would have to be in the northern part of the country. So when I hear of clubs with six-seven month seasons spending $1,000,000 I just wonder.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2010, 05:29:19 PM »
Tom: I think that if you are going to cutback on maintenance of the golf course then you had better keep your membership informed.  Let's say you cut back 30% on your course maintenance which is a big chunk of money - you have to explain to the membership exactly what is being cut and what will be the effect on how the course plays and how it looks.  The members should be given the opportunity to voice their opinion and if they would rather see the cuts elsewhere.  If it is a country club, then you have to do it in food and beverage because it is the only big ticket item and the only one which all the members use. 

Jerry:

It's no different at the club than it is in the health care debate.  The people like what they've got, because they don't understand anything about what it costs, or what it might mean in the long term.  They won't understand the situation until THEY get laid off or their employer can no longer justify the expense.  And of course everybody over 65 has got theirs already.

I am not surprised the same argument doesn't have any traction in the food & beverage situation at private clubs, either.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2010, 06:04:00 PM »
Tom Doak,

Desperate people do desperate things.

Every time I hear of a large capital expenditure that's couched in the terms of "necessary to bring in new members", I ask, what if it doesn't ?   Who will pay for it ?  The members who are already stressed ?   And, won't the additional debt/obligation make the club even more unattractive ?

I think there's a delicate balance between trimming down expenses while maintaining both efficiency and an attractive product.

Too much in either direction can have drastic results.

For decades I've been against grooming bunkers more frequently than monthly (weather adjusted), creating and maintaining decorative flower/shrub areas, allowing cart revenue (net of expenses) to go anywhere but to the green budget, mowing fairways more than 3 times a week, roughs more than 2 times a week (both weather adjusted) with 2 and 1 times being OK.

For more than 30 years I've advocated reducing water usage, and, reducing the areas where irrigation was applied.

Perhaps the times ahead will force these changes.  I certainly haven't been very successful in stemming the "groom to perfection" mentality

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What will clubs and architects do
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2010, 06:40:14 PM »
Nobody can tell me their club can't cut back in maintenance costs.  I simply find it difficult to believe when I know oine of my clubs operates at bare bones maintenance and they are still looking for ways to cut back.  Indeed, it is looking very much like they will not seek to replace their HEAD GREENKEEPER who was made reduandant a few years back.  I haven't noticed any difference other than it is one of the very few clubs in the UK which DIDN'T raise their for the current year.  I was thinking about dropping my membership until I found out the club was serious about controlling costs.  I can can get behind this sort of management and did.

My other club I am not sure about.  We embarked on a £500,000 improvement plan which really just pays for a watering system, a new reservoir and some new tees.  I personally think it was a crazy idea to carry out in these times.  Our entire capital reserve is now wiped out.  I know I would rather have the money in the bank and see what happens the next few years.  Its incredible to think of how different the mindsets of the two clubs are. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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