News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 14 at Pebble among the elite par-5's in the world?
« Reply #75 on: February 16, 2010, 08:26:41 AM »
14 is a superbly placed par five hole
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 14 at Pebble among the elite par-5's in the world?
« Reply #76 on: February 16, 2010, 11:01:31 AM »
Jordan - I might have this backwards, but I think Tim G was hypothesizing that the original green size was bigger than the current size.  His 1,000 sq ft reference was his view of the "effective" size of the top portion of the green that was in play on Sunday.


Tim B--

Indeed that is what I meant.  Apologies if I wasn't initially clear.

I'll just add it to this thread since the one I started about the hole has dropped off the first page:

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2010/2/15/usga-tweaks-pebbles-14th.html

Evidently Mike Davis, who we have praised for his good decisions on US Open setups the past couple years, agrees that the setup of the 14th on Sunday was a little more aggressive than was warranted.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 14 at Pebble among the elite par-5's in the world?
« Reply #77 on: February 16, 2010, 11:06:27 AM »
Jordan - I might have this backwards, but I think Tim G was hypothesizing that the original green size was bigger than the current size.  His 1,000 sq ft reference was his view of the "effective" size of the top portion of the green that was in play on Sunday.


Tim B--

Indeed that is what I meant.  Apologies if I wasn't initially clear.

I'll just add it to this thread since the one I started about the hole has dropped off the first page:

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2010/2/15/usga-tweaks-pebbles-14th.html

Evidently Mike Davis, who we have praised for his good decisions on US Open setups the past couple years, agrees that the setup of the 14th on Sunday was a little more aggressive than was warranted.

Do you think they had many choices where to locate the hole?  I've started a separate thread wondering how many hole locations are available on that green.  Things could get very ugly in June if the wind gets to blowing.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 14 at Pebble among the elite par-5's in the world?
« Reply #78 on: February 16, 2010, 11:06:50 AM »
Pat,

Regardless of the other arguments, why couldn't they have just put the hole in locations under 2% or 3% slope? Surely there are some...

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 14 at Pebble among the elite par-5's in the world?
« Reply #79 on: February 16, 2010, 11:07:42 AM »
Growing the rough, to stop balls hit to the wrong place, denying them their ultimate conclusion, (even OB) proves that these guys are not that good. However, They are that pampered.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 14 at Pebble among the elite par-5's in the world?
« Reply #80 on: February 16, 2010, 01:50:38 PM »
#14 played far too large a role in determining the champion.  Two players on the first page of the leaderboard made 9, and were eliminated from contention.  One hole shouldn't make such a large difference.

John:

From left of the green, both players hit shots that went long (with Mr. Molder's actually running off the front of the green).  Both shots might have held with old grooves.  I think we saw a combination of poor decision making and failure to adapt to new equipment.

I have two questions for you:

If two players late in the day eagled a hole to jump up the leaderboard, would you say it shouldn't make such a difference?

Do you believe either of the players who made a 9 hit shots deserving of a better score?

WW


John, I don't believe the hole is to blame for those nines?

It's a hole that can eat away at your soul. Much like it probably is currently eating those two poor souls tonight.

It's an awkward (reverse camber?) hole that squeezes the sphincter on almost every shot. Especially the second shot. Trying to get too cute around that green is what causes the high scores. (And OB right.)

The prudent play is to be happy with having your ball on the green in reg. Even if it's on the far right side with a left pin. The putt is not as difficult as it may look to the uninitiated.  

WWhitehead and Adam,

Sorry for not paying attention...very busy since I last checked in.

I suppose you can suggest that players should play away from the hole and accept bogey.  Rarely do pros attempt that play.

The closely mown area left of the green is new, and makes the hole awfully severe.  I'll bet that feature doesn't last long.

I didn't like the fact that two players on the first page of the leaderboard made quadruple bogey, and one hole cost them everything.  I suppose Padraig Harrington had two similar experiences last year, during the Firestone and the U.S. Open, if I'm not mistaken.  Paul Goydos pushed a 7-iron 10 yards right and was left with an impossible chip.  Hit the right side of a 3000 sq. ft green on the fly and have an impossible leave.  There are no pin placements on the right half of the green.

I feel exactly the same way about Bandon Trails #14.  It's a hole where you can shoot 77 with an 8 or 9 on the 14th hole.  The hole is too influential when calculating the final score.  However, you can make the argument that there's nothing wrong with one hole each round where great care, even defensive play, are required.

What killed Goydos is he couldn't get the ball far enough up the hill, and had 137 yards left for his third shot.  The hole strongly favored a power hitter.  Dustin Johnson won, for the second consecutive year.  J.B. Holmes lost by a shot.

The green is too small, with far too few pin positions, to have many alternate strategies.  Just hit the hell out of it twice, and try to get the wedge to stick on the top shelf.  Power hitter can try to get there in two, if the pin is back.

I don't see this as a great hole, except that it's rather unique.  It's better when the left bank is left at rough length.

JK

Oh, and Wade, I have no problem with an eagle here and there.  :-)




JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 14 at Pebble among the elite par-5's in the world?
« Reply #81 on: February 16, 2010, 01:58:01 PM »
The ego of the player can be the architects best weapon and this hole location proves it again.

It's hard to do that to pros without making it ridiculous for amateurs...