[Mike Cirba]

Actually, I'm betting most golfers would lover their scores by purposefully playing "short" of the middle of each green.   

It's when players of all types miss to the sides or long that the calculator fun starts on most holes.

[Gib_Papazian]

Years ago, when the Art Hills course at Half Moon Bay was ready to open, I had the opportunity to play it with a local golf media guy named John Abendroth, who spent five years on the PGA Tour, and his son - a pretty good high school senior. There was nobody on the grounds that day as they had just completed a fly-over video of the golf course, where the pins had been set in the exact center of the putting surfaces for aesthetic purposes.

For some odd reason, the grounds crew went back after the shots were taken and removed all the flags, just as we were walking to the tee. Instead of insisting that they be replaced we thought it would be fun to play the course for the first time completely blind, simply hitting to the middle of the greens and seeing how it came out.

At the end of the round, simply looking at the yardage plates (to the middle of the green), our scores were 72, 75 and 76 by his son, who played to a six handicap . . . . pretty decent numbers on a fairly challenging golf course in the afternoon breeze along the Pacific. It occurred to me that it was much easier to hit the ball close to the pin because we had essentially eliminated one variable: the location of the hole. Therefore, we had the exact distances and it was only necessary to make solid contact without worrying about trying to place the ball on a particular spot on a large green with inaccurate yardages.

Interestingly, I once actually had the opportunity to play in a fun tournament where each green had two pins - and players were free to play for whichever one they chose. It was a nightmare for me because I found myself changing my mind in the middle of my backswing which one I was going to play towards. I'm a little quirky between the ears to begin with, but throwing in another variable drove me insane - even from the tee, where I normally try and look to see which side of the fairway will leave me with the easiest angle on the approach shot.

I hit the ball absolutely sideways all day long and nearly needed psychotherapy by the 18th hole - only made more traumatic by the cognitive dissonance on every green trying to decide which putt was easier, reading the line with the other hole nibbling into the corner of my eye.

The whole thing was a deliberate psychology experiment that I failed miserably - shooting 10 shots over my "usual game" and having little enjoyment in the process.

Lest you think I rely on yardages exclusively, several years ago before the roof caved in on my head, I had occasion to play the Ocean Course at Olympic in fairly soft conditions with a group of guests - the best of whom was a shaky 24. I made up my mind to simply babysit them around the golf course, invoking the "Mulligan Fairy" rule every time one of them topped it off the tee or fairway.

Thus, I stepped onto each tee box on complete autopilot, barely looking down the fairway. Not once that day did I so much as sneak a peek at a sprinkler head, but instead took a quick look at the target, pulled a club and hit it towards the hole. We ran around the golf course in well under four hours and by some bizarre twist of fate or fortune, I shot 65 - leaving at least three putts out on the golf course that might have dropped.

So, being a clever Armenian, I somehow deduced that if I was playing well enough to post a number like that purely by feel, going out the next day and looking at the markers would make me all the smarter. 78 swings later (it looked like an 82), I decided to have one more try at playing blind and set out the next day with my best friend, pulling a stick with only a glance and firing away. 68! Hey, I thought, this is no hill for a high stepper like me, right?

But the next time out, the doubts started to creep in . . . . am I sure it is really a six iron? Maybe a knock-down five? How to solve the conundrum? I know, I'll just sneak a quick peek at the sprinkler head, just this once . . . . maybe twice. Pretty soon, the same confusion crept in as if there were two pins on that green out there and before I knew it, vapor lock set in. Even my money shot, the feathered 6-iron, looked like Monty's last approach at Winged Foot with the Open on the line.

I'm sorry I even posted on this thread because a case of pre-shot indecision is as bad as the shanks - and I have reintroduced it into my delicate psyche.          

[Mike Cirba]

Wow Gib....you're really screwed up!   

[Gib_Papazian]

I'll just add it to my growing minefield of phobias and mental cul de sacs.

[Mike_Young]

If there were no flag on the green would score better?

Mike,

Years ago I read about an experiment where the flags were removed and scores IMPROVED.

Golfers, instead of going for the risky perimeter shots, hit to the middle of the green, leaving themselves with manageable putts.

Ask yourself, If you could hit to the middle of every green, on a typical day, how long would your putts be ?

Pat,
I do't think they would average any longer than on any other given day....what do you think?

D schmidt,
you say:
"If it's a tournament round (state am or whatever), there's no way in hell not knowing where the pins are could possibly help you because you're in a tournament golf mindset to start with.  All it can do it hurt you by denying you information and the best opportunities to make birdies that you would have otherwise made and avoid unnecessary pin-driven risks.  "
I can see that side and wonder the same but I tend to disagree....because I think that most of us including pros will miss more greens by going for pins..now I agree with you if you are saying the player is on the green but I think the main issue here is not that one has longer putts but that he has more opportunities for par without a big number....
Remember the Nicklaus quote one time where he said something like he was able to go one entire year without short siding himself...man that's a pretty big deal....I think especially in tournament golf one goes for the middle of the green below the pin more times than attacking a pin....but that's just me....I do think that the "short side" is the biggest defense an architect has for really good players on most golf holes..and I think that shot height and spin allowed more pros to play to such pins....or what I call missing to the outside of the pin....I think we will see more guys mss to the "inside" of the pin now....especially if the areas around the greens are shaved and with the grooves out of the rough....so when I put down my good and bad of playing middle of the green...I think you score lower...you may miss a few chances at bird but you also mss a lot of chances at double....
When charlie Rymer was still on tour and looking for any gimmick he could find Rotella told him something like this...
1.  hit whatever you need to hit to be in the short grass.
2. if you are outside of 175 yards in to the green then ht it to the middle....
3. if you are inside 175 yards to the green then hit it to the inside of the green nearest the pin
4. if you are under 125 yards then try to "make it"
and that advice is for pros....and even they realize their worst enemy is the short side of a green....IMHO
So I guess we can look at it in several different ways..who knows


BUT as a design factor I think it makes an architect think about how to defend against a very good player with his green surrounds moreso...JMO

[Patrick_Mucci]

The answer depends on whether you're talking about calligraphy golf or whether you're talking about noncompetitive experiments or other "fun" rounds.  Obviously, none of the "experiments" done with this were ever done in serious tournaments that mattered to a field of good players.  How could they have been?  By definition, these experiments were "fun rounds" unless somebody's got hardware from a State Pinless Amateur sitting on their mantle that I don't know about.  

Shivas, I don't think tournament conditions are a factor since all competitors would be playing the same pinless holes

If it's a tournament round (state am or whatever), there's no way in hell not knowing where the pins are could possibly help you because you're in a tournament golf mindset to start with.  All it can do it hurt you by denying you information and the best opportunities to make birdies that you would have otherwise made and avoid unnecessary pin-driven risks.  
If we assume that the average green is 30 yards deep and 30 yards wide, with holes not cut within 5 yards of the perimeter, balls hit to the center would ONLY have a 30 foot putt as the longest possible putt, with all other putts being of a shorter distance.

When you're in bogey position, or even on tough approach shots you're playing to middles (or even away from the hole) anyway.

Here's a classic example:  reachable par 5 with trouble off the tee and a sucker pin.  In calligraphy golf, if I see the sucker pin from the tee, I'm likely to hit a 4 iron off the tee and play it as a 3 shot hole unless I'm driving it great.  In fun golf, I don't give a damn that it's a sucker pin or how I'm driving it -  because risk prevention simply isn't relevant in those types of rounds the way it is in tournament golf.

In one case, information is analyzed; in the other, it's either consciously or subconsciously ignored!

Pat, with your up and down game, I'd be really, really surprised if you told me that when you hit a poor drive, and are forced to lay up to an up and down position in the middle of the fairway to make par, you think you'd be better off playing to the middle of the green with a wedge in your hands.    

I'll let Mike speak for himself, but, I thought the question was in the context of approach shots.
Obviously, if I'm in a greenside bunker or greenside rough, I'm going to walk up and look to see where the hole is, before hitting my recovery  

If you're playing in an experiment or some other fun round, I'd agree that playing the middles would help most low handicappers because they try shots they'd NEVER try in calligraphy golf, but in my view, it certainly would hurt when you're in tournament scoring mode.

The answer may depend on the golfer's strengths and weaknesses.
Golfers with great short games might be penalized, where golfers with poor short games might benefit.

[Jim Sweeney]

It's an interesting question but one needs to clarify exactly what does lower handicap mean?

A very low (scratch or better) has certainly learned when to go at a flagstick and when to play to the middle of the green. That decision is based on a number of factors including distance, lie, wind, ground conditions, ets., etc. So a very low handicapper won't always play toward the flag anyway; he will play toward the flag only when the odds are with him.

However, someone who hits a lot of greens and is a moderately skilled putter (i.e., averages 36 or fewer putts per round) can easily score in the mid to high 70s and earn a handicap of 8 or less, which is within the range of Mike's sample. For this group, if not knowing the location of the flagstick helps them focus on a larger target (the green, and not a portion of the green) it could be of some help.

Scratch or better handicappers are generally at least sophisticated enough to play to their strengths and know when to play safe.

[JMEvensky]

I just suggested that we have a 2-day member tournament.First day,2 cups with flagsticks;second day,1 cup with no flagstick.Personally,I think it would be a blast.I will be in minority with that opinion.

[JMEvensky]

JM:  the problem is that you know darn well that the overly-competitive guys would walk around the course before the round to get the pin positions, defeating the whole purpose of the exercise...

Actually,the biggest problem will be the 48 handicapper ,whose last GIR was during the first Bush administration,walking in to the pro shop and worrying about what will happen if he makes an ace with 2 cups in the green.He will need to know that before he can get tournament ready.Then,he will bitch because he read in a magazine that they do things differently elsewhere.

We provide hole location sheets every day anyway because it's critically important for said 48 handicapper to know the exact yardage--even though the information is as useless to him as Fermat's Last Theorem.

[mike_beene]

Depends on the course.Old course where you cant be above hole,no.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JM:  the problem is that you know darn well that the overly-competitive guys would walk around the course before the round to get the pin positions, defeating the whole purpose of the exercise...

Actually,the biggest problem will be the 48 handicapper ,whose last GIR was during the first Bush administration,walking in to the pro shop and worrying about what will happen if he makes an ace with 2 cups in the green.He will need to know that before he can get tournament ready.Then,he will bitch because he read in a magazine that they do things differently elsewhere.

We provide hole location sheets every day anyway because it's critically important for said 48 handicapper to know the exact yardage--even though the information is as useless to him as Fermat's Last Theorem.

JM,

I't s funny that you mention that.

I had a disagreement with a fellow member on how unimportant determining the hole location on a certain hole was.

The hole is a 190 yard slightly uphill, into a prevailing breeze, par 3, bunkered on both sides, with a green that's 28 yards deep, that slopes back to front.

I asked him why it was important to know where the hole was cut ?

He said, so that he can determine what club to hit to that hole location.

I asked him how many times he hit that green.
His response ...... 75 %
I told him that PGA Tour Pros, the best players in the world don't hit 75 % of the greens and that I doubted his assessment and that he should just strive to hit the center of the green, instead of going pin hunting.

He insisted that knowing the hole location was vital.

I then made a wager with him on his ability to hit the green 50 % of the time

Had he been forced to pay off he would have filed bankruptcy years ago.

But, this demonstrates the problem.

Mediocre to poor golfers think that they NEED that information, when it's probably irrelevant in the great majority of shots they play

[JMEvensky]

Pat,same song,different verse.

A few years ago,a member who can't break 90 with a pencil  complains that the club down the street prints out tournament hole location sheets on weekends(circles with green depth,holes measured from front and edge).We just print out +/- steps from center and all sprinkler heads are marked.

I told him we'd walk out to 1 fairway,100 yards from the center of the green.If he could hit 10 of 20 wedges within 10 feet of pin high(long or short),I'd pay him $1000,IF he paid me $100 for each outside 10 feet.The Head Pro suggested to him that it might not work out in his favor.

I also had a lady ask me to have the sprinkler heads next to the chipping green marked.I asked her if she wanted them marked in feet or feet and inches.She thought just marking in feet would be enough.

You can't make this shit up.

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