How do you build a great membership in a club?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Yesterday, we had a two-some that were a freebie play and they brought their packed lunch into the bar and ate. I thought about raring up but wanted to check on their names and thought it might be better to write. They were guests of one of our corporatemembers so my channel will have to be through them. I would imagine the corporate member will feel extremely embarrassed.
On a seperate note I think charity 4 ball begs doubled last year.

Hey Adrian,

Does your club accept cash?  We run into this all the time.  The guest is so appreciative of being
allowed to come use the course he is hesitant to ring F&B to his member sponsor's account.  This
is probably not the case in the scenario listed above... but I have seen it happen here.  Noone has
brown bagged it... but they have sit in the bar drinking water until I INSIST they have a drink on
the club!

In this climate I'd accept postage stamps. Sure we accept cash, these chaps spend £2 between them on a cup of tea each.

[archie_struthers]

 

Funny someone asked about taking cash at the club !  We've had some discussions about this , as some have suggested a cashless society at the club.  Just a terrible idea from an operator IMHO as many people don't want anyone to know how much they spend monthly  and some big spenders are shocked at their end of month bill ......we don't care how they pay , as long as they do, but again collecting money can be an issue for clubs , so cash isn't too bad.  As a guest , it's uncomfortable to put a large charge against your hosts account , so again for me cash is always a-ok and any issues with handling same are manageable.

[Roger Wolfe]

Funny someone asked about taking cash at the club !  We've had some discussions about this , as some have suggested a cashless society at the club.  Just a terrible idea from an operator IMHO as many people don't want anyone to know how much they spend monthly  and some big spenders are shocked at their end of month bill ......we don't care how they pay , as long as they do, but again collecting money can be an issue for clubs , so cash isn't too bad.  As a guest , it's uncomfortable to put a large charge against your hosts account , so again for me cash is always a-ok and any issues with handling same are manageable.

There are so many reasons to not take cash I cannot list them...

1.  The $$ you will waste HANDLING the cash.
2.  The $$ that will mysteriously vanish you never even knew you had.
3.  The $$ folks will NOT spend because it is NOT cash (why do you think casinos give out chips).

Not taking cash GENERATES revenue.  The only folks that accept cash accept it because they HAVE to.

PS.  Give your drunks two separate accounts... one that goes home... another they pay in the office.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Funny someone asked about taking cash at the club !  We've had some discussions about this , as some have suggested a cashless society at the club.  Just a terrible idea from an operator IMHO as many people don't want anyone to know how much they spend monthly  and some big spenders are shocked at their end of month bill ......we don't care how they pay , as long as they do, but again collecting money can be an issue for clubs , so cash isn't too bad.  As a guest , it's uncomfortable to put a large charge against your hosts account , so again for me cash is always a-ok and any issues with handling same are manageable.

There are so many reasons to not take cash I cannot list them...

1.  The $$ you will waste HANDLING the cash.
2.  The $$ that will mysteriously vanish you never even knew you had.
3.  The $$ folks will NOT spend because it is NOT cash (why do you think casinos give out chips).

Not taking cash GENERATES revenue.  The only folks that accept cash accept it because they HAVE to.

PS.  Give your drunks two separate accounts... one that goes home... another they pay in the office.

Each club is different Roger. The UK is still mainly cash our culture is a bit different.

[Roger Wolfe]

Funny someone asked about taking cash at the club !  We've had some discussions about this , as some have suggested a cashless society at the club.  Just a terrible idea from an operator IMHO as many people don't want anyone to know how much they spend monthly  and some big spenders are shocked at their end of month bill ......we don't care how they pay , as long as they do, but again collecting money can be an issue for clubs , so cash isn't too bad.  As a guest , it's uncomfortable to put a large charge against your hosts account , so again for me cash is always a-ok and any issues with handling same are manageable.

There are so many reasons to not take cash I cannot list them...

1.  The $$ you will waste HANDLING the cash.
2.  The $$ that will mysteriously vanish you never even knew you had.
3.  The $$ folks will NOT spend because it is NOT cash (why do you think casinos give out chips).

Not taking cash GENERATES revenue.  The only folks that accept cash accept it because they HAVE to.

PS.  Give your drunks two separate accounts... one that goes home... another they pay in the office.

Each club is different Roger. The UK is still mainly cash our culture is a bit different.

That is good advice Adrian... arguing "cash" versus "member charge" is like
arguing religion.  Best to remain friends and agree to disagree!!

[Adrian_Stiff]

Roger, we are totally different we dont really do the tab thing in bars, you order your drink and you pay. Hotels that sort of thing is different though. Quite a lot of golf clubs have loyalty cards but if you are a non member you wont have one. Generally you pay money over the bar and get the money on your card, so you get a bit off the bar price.

[archie_struthers]

 


Roger I totally disagree with member charge for all things....it's always an option but to not take cash is a mistake....pure and simple. Why have clubs gone to monthly billing...simple...the bill is much smaller and easier to manage ...

I definitely have no problem with member charging , but to eliminate cash as an option is not a good idea,  many self employed people greatly prefer pay as they go, plus there is no record of the date on the bill for those playing hooky

as to theft ....computer theft is far greater than stick ups these days ,  you have to monitor payments no matter how you accept it...thieves will steal no matter what ....you have to have controls

[David_Elvins]

There are so many reasons to not take cash I cannot list them...

1.  The $$ you will waste HANDLING the cash.
2.  The $$ that will mysteriously vanish you never even knew you had.
3.  The $$ folks will NOT spend because it is NOT cash (why do you think casinos give out chips).

Not taking cash GENERATES revenue.  The only folks that accept cash accept it because they HAVE to.

Roger,
Some interesting points but the main problem I have with this is that as far as I know, the purpose of a club is to serve its members, not maximise revenue like a casino.  Whatever system a club uses, it should be used for the benfits of its members, not the reasons you list. 

[Roger Wolfe]

There are so many reasons to not take cash I cannot list them...

1.  The $$ you will waste HANDLING the cash.
2.  The $$ that will mysteriously vanish you never even knew you had.
3.  The $$ folks will NOT spend because it is NOT cash (why do you think casinos give out chips).

Not taking cash GENERATES revenue.  The only folks that accept cash accept it because they HAVE to.

Roger,
Some interesting points but the main problem I have with this is that as far as I know, the purpose of a club is to serve its members, not maximise revenue like a casino.  Whatever system a club uses, it should be used for the benfits of its members, not the reasons you list. 

 
Sorry David... I was responding to Archie's claim that people
spend less money when they cannot use cash when, in fact,
the exact opposite is correct.  That was the purpose of my
casino comment. 

You guys are not thinking the way a club manager thinks.
We want to break even at the end of the year... not make
a profit.  We also want our members to get exactly what they
want... but spend as little as possible getting it.

When I go into a club as a new general manager I don't immediately
tell the board they should get rid of cash.  I simply explain the dangers
of accepting it and the controls I will INSIST are in place to control it if
they expect me to be responsible for it.

It is up to the membership how much they want to spend "administering"
cash.  If the ability to use cash is worth the risk and expense that comes
with using it... WONDERFUL!  I, however, believe a better way to spend
my members' hard earned dues is in golf course maintenance.

I spent five years as an auditor with a big six accounting firm and grew up
working in bowling alleys and bars.  There are a thousand ways to steal
and the easiest thing to steal is CASH. 

It is also evil in that it can quickly turn an honest employee, suddenly
faced with a crisis at home, into a thief.  Its easier to get out of the
clubhouse with two $20 bills in your bra... rather than lugging a case of
chicken wings out of the loading dock.  And last time I checked, the
electric company did not accept chicken wings as a form of payment
before turning off the power.

To address the comments below:

"many self employed people greatly prefer pay as they go" - fine if you are willing to pay for it

"there is no record of the date on the bill for those playing hooky" - These are personal issues
of a few individuals whose problems should not be subsidized by the other members at the club.
Put it on your buddy's bill and pay hiim cash.  Heck... put it on the club manager's bill and pay
him cash.

"as to theft ....computer theft is far greater than stick ups these days ,  you have to monitor
payments no matter how you accept it...thieves will steal no matter what ....you have to have
controls" - no comment

[Patrick_Mucci]

Roger,

You're correct about cash.

Even airlines have stopped accepting cash for in-flight beverages, earphones, etc., etc..

I don't know of one club that accepts cash from its members for food service

[Chris Kane]

I don't know of one club that accepts cash from its members for food service

If you left the United States you might encounter a few.

[Scott Warren]

Even airlines have stopped accepting cash for in-flight beverages, earphones, etc., etc..

I have flown with seven airlines in the past 12 months and all accepted cash for goods - from headphones and beer to duty free grog - on board.

And as Chris says, outside the USA cash in golf clubs is still a reality. 30-odd courses in 7 countries this past 12 months and I am yet to be told I can't pay cash in the restaurant, half-way hut or bar.

[Chris Kane]

And as Chris says, outside the USA cash in golf clubs is still a reality. 30-odd courses in 7 countries this past 12 months and I am yet to be told I can't pay cash in the restaurant, half-way hut or bar.

Well said - I've paid with cash at every course I've played.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Lochinvar had no till in 1990 and that was the first US  club I noticed, you might all be that way in the US now but in the UK every golf club around me and every flight I have been on still deals in Arthur Ash.

[Sean_A]

A lot of clubs in the UK use catering/barstaff contractors - which I always preferred rather thatn having direct club employees for this work.  For these contractors, taking cash is a way to earn that extra 1-3% credit or other payment forms charge off the top.  I try to use as little cash as possible because I CAN KEEP A RECORD, but I still believe cash is king, now moreso than in the last several years. 

Ciao

[archie_struthers]

  ;

I'm not one to pay for a coke or a beer with a credit card on a plane , but I'm probably old school in that respect. If they don't take cash, I just don't buy it on a plane....most of our members are older than me , and getting older so I'd suggest we think alike for the most part as to this.  I actually have a debit card but lots of members don 't


Don't know if most of you try to break even at your clubs , but most around here try to  maximize revenuie while providing services that the members like. If we don't they have other optiions for their golf and recreation dollars. Wouldn't you eant to maximize revenue and use the exscess cash for improvements to the faciliity if taxes are your issue  ?   Or reduce dues?


 Of course the membes don't own all the clubs around here , and obviously if they did some things would change ....I'd still take cash as an alternative to member charges for many reasons , some stated already.  Member charge only tends to hurt morale amongst the staff also, as tipping invariably suffers.  As tipping suffers , the quality of service follows.  We've had many debates as to this , but nothing motivates a service employee like $$$$$$$$$  when they leave at night...



 

[Roger Wolfe]

;

Don't know if molst of you try to break even at your clubs , but most around here try to make the maximize revenuie while providing services that the members like. If we don't they have other optiions for their golf and recreation dollars. Wouldn't you eant to maximize revenue and use the exscess cash for improvements to the faciliity if taxes are your issue  ?   Or reduce dues?


 Of course the membes don't own all the clubs around here , and obviously if they did some things would change ....I'd still take cash as an alternative to member charges for many reasons , some stated already.  Member charge only tends to hurt morale amongst the staff also, as tipping invariably suffers.  As tipping suffers , the quality of service follows.  We've had many debates as to this , but nothing motivates a service employee like $$$$$$$$$  when they leave at night...
 

Archie,

As a patron, I have the utmost respect regarding the old school (and European... I guess) ways
of running a club.  I love being able to grease the starter to get a free bucket of range balls and
sneaking your buddy on for $10.  I love being able to slip Mary Jane Rottencrotch an extra $1 to
get a double shot of Fleishmann's in your gin and tonic.  I love being able to give the locker room
attendant $5 so he doesn't turn you in for taking the towels home every week and raiding the
toilet paper dispenser.

But do NOT try to justify accepting cash for business reasons.  I am on the flip side... hired by the
membership to run the club in the most efficient way possible.  All of the things I mention above
result in HIGHER DUES... period.  In the current environment this is unacceptable.

"Don't know if most of you try to break even at your clubs , but most around here try to make the
maximize revenue while providing services that the members like. If we don't they have other optiions
for their golf and recreation dollars. Wouldn't you eant to maximize revenue and use the excess cash
for improvements to the faciliity if taxes are your issue  ?   Or reduce dues?

We are all trying to do this.  If you are smart... you build a capital component to your dues.  We try
to reduce the guesswork in our budget as much as possible.  I take my expenses and my capital
requirements...I then subtract my variable revenue (carts, guests).  I divide the remainder by 500 and
that is where I set my dues.  It is THAT SIMPLE.  If I set my dues too high because I have to pay my
employees an extra 15 hours a week to handle the cash... that is money I cannot use for capital...
worst case being if my dues are too high and someone joins another club or leaves mine!

Yes... Archie and his buddies can throw cash around thus enabling them to play hooky, hide their boozing
from their wives, graciously over-tip the servers, and not have to know how much they actually spend
at the club at the end of the month!  I am going to make a business decision based on that???

Archie, you must not be part of a member owned club.  If you are, you certainly are not take ownership
of that club.  And where does it say not taking cash means you cannot tip?  We have a tip line on our
checks and you are more than welcome to tip in cash.  We even have a $200 bank in the till so members
can make change for bets and guys like you can get change to tip MJR $3 instead of $5 so you can buy
your $2 lottery tickets on the way home.

I am not trying to be an arse... just trying to make my point.  Polite explanation doesn't seem to be doing
the trick.   

[Adrian_Stiff]

We take debit or credit cards but they obviously cost. Some members pay a bill £5.50 and use their debit card. That transaction costs us £0.23. Thats quite a chunk of the profit. We are going to charge £0.25 on all transactions over £12.00 from April 1st. There is no doubt it would be better if everyone used a clubcard, but members forget their card, there are arguments over things they cant use it for (we have outside catering), the older members use cash, I know I do. All in all we have looked at it and it is a nuisance both ways, keeping cash on the premises is a headache also but in the main we have to do what the customer wants and primarily because we have golfers that are members or daily visitors perhaps split 50-50 we have to take cash. In our case I dont think we would get anymore money either way.

[Bruce Katona]

Roger: Archie & his wife were in the food service business for years and Archie our partner at one golf club. Archie  also owns another golf club.  We all take cash & credit cards - income generation and controls to keep employees honest need to be in place.

As an example - with my former employer, we ran a private club who needed to do Monday & Tuesday outings to balance out annual cash flow.  In doing our due diligence, we noticed the shop did not accept credit cards or cash.

In running the outing business, many of the players are only occasional golfers and need things the day they play - balls, hats gloves, weather related gear, etc.  This club was losing out on sigbificant income as the only way a guest could purchase anything was to put the expense on the outing hosts account and reimburse them directly.  NOT GOOD FOR SHOP BUSINESS.  So this policy was amended to accept credit/debit cards.

[Sean_A]

You two are arguing over completely different systems.  In the US, Roger is talking about private clubs where there are very few visitors.  Guests are accomodated by member chits.  In the UK there are a lot of folks around clubs who are not members.  Money needs to be collected somehow.  I know part of the rise in green fees is due to many clubs accepting credit cards for green fees.  Ten years ago it was rare for a club to do so.  In any case, if I have viistors walking around, I would rather have cash off them rather than relying on cheques or paying the service charge for credit.

Ciao

[Roger Wolfe]

Roger: Archie & his wife were in the food service business for years and Archie our partner at one golf club. Archie  also owns another golf club.  We all take cash & credit cards - income generation and controls to keep employees honest need to be in place.

As an example - with my former employer, we ran a private club who needed to do Monday & Tuesday outings to balance out annual cash flow.  In doing our due diligence, we noticed the shop did not accept credit cards or cash.

In running the outing business, many of the players are only occasional golfers and need things the day they play - balls, hats gloves, weather related gear, etc.  This club was losing out on sigbificant income as the only way a guest could purchase anything was to put the expense on the outing hosts account and reimburse them directly.  NOT GOOD FOR SHOP BUSINESS.  So this policy was amended to accept credit/debit cards.

We take credit cards for EVERYTHING except for member's paying their monthly bill or entry fees.  We allow them to do that, but run the cc fee on top of the bill.  This is key for guests to buy merchandise in the pro shop and pay their guest fees if the member is not picking it up.

I think Sean is right on time... we are arguing apples vs oranges.  BUT... don't tell me "accepting cash" is a good business decision at any private
facility unless you absolutely MUST accept it.  I am not backing down on that one.   

[Sean_A]

I encountered an interesting system at Little Aston last year.  They never gave out code numbers for doors.  Instead one receives a card which opens doors then the card is chucked after the day.  I could easily see that same card having cash value with credit card top up in the pro-shop, but folks would need a way to get their card credited for unused money.  People may balk, but I saw this very system at a Coventry game.  No cash at concessions.  One topped up a card and I don't even know if you can get the money back.  I will say it worked well for keeping the lines moving and I am sure it stops a lot of dosh going missing.

Ciao

[JMEvensky]

Anything that can be done to raise the private aspect of a club adds value to the membership,IMO.Member-chit only helps to draw a distinction between members and non-members.

Members like to know that membership has its privileges.

Agree with Roger Wolfe that if you're allowing non-members to pay cash,you're undermining the private club aspect.

[Tom Birkert]

This is such a loaded question, and I think the answer differs depending on whether the club is in the US or not and whether it's a modern club or not.

Old, established clubs tend to have mechanisms in place to keep the Membership as they want it. Whether this is right or not is a matter of opinion. They're also obviously harder to join due to the hoops one has to go through.

Newer clubs have a harder time establishing a great Membership, especially if they have financial obligations to meet. The owners can come beholden to those who can afford Membership, and these clubs can end up not having a Membership that interacts. I witnessed one club on Long Island that had about three times as many staff as golfers present when I played there. And maintained a caddy program. It seemed to appeal to those who wanted to play alone and could afford to.

It ultimately comes down to what each individual prefers and I hope everyone can find Membership at a course which suits their values.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Even airlines have stopped accepting cash for in-flight beverages, earphones, etc., etc..

I have flown with seven airlines in the past 12 months and all accepted cash for goods - from headphones and beer to duty free grog - on board.

Have you flown Jet Blue ?   Continental  ?  United  ?   American  ?  

They no longer accept cash.  And, I suspect that other airlines will quickly follow suit.

And as Chris says, outside the USA cash in golf clubs is still a reality. 30-odd courses in 7 countries this past 12 months and I am yet to be told I can't pay cash in the restaurant, half-way hut or bar.

I can't speak to clubs outside of the U.S. but, in the U.S. I haven't come across a private club that allows members or guests to pay for dinnner and/or club services with cash.  Where cash is involved, skimming thrives