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Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2010, 02:17:19 PM »
In my experience, a sound dictator works best at a golf club.  But, get an unsound dictator and it's the most miserable situation ever.  Clubs by committee with a vast majority of the membership being of the same social-economic class tend to work as well.  When you have no screening process clubs seem to turn into high school popularity contests when they work by committee.

Here are my guidelines for a good club...

1.  Single memberships ONLY.  If your wife or husband wants to be a member, they have to buy their own membership.  I would set up the ability for members to buy their children junior memberships.

2.  No pool.

3.  Focused on golf.

4.  Hire the best club professional in my area.  I would pay TOP dollar to get the best one I can find.  When I say best, I don't necessarily mean the best player.  I would want one that can play, teach, do club repair, and have outstanding interpersonal skills.

5.  Hire the best Superintendent I could find.  Same as #4 but in the maintenance field.

6.  I would have limited tournaments.  Men's, women's, and junior Club Championship (Match Play and flighted), a Stroke Play Championship, one member guest, one member-member, one pro-am, and maybe host an open amateur event (i.e. US Am Qualifier, etc.). No mixers, no President's Cup, no scrambles, no Jack and Jill, etc.  I would host very few outings and only ones that raised money for charities.  I would donate the course for those select few events.

7.  Clubhouse focused on pro shop, locker rooms and grille.  No big restaurant, ball rooms, or any other giant financial burden.

8.  No tee times.  Show up and get out in order of when you sign up.

9.  Walking only with a few carts for handicapped people.

10.  Caddy program.  Encouraged use but not mandatory unless unaccompanied guests are playing.

11.  I would enforce a pace of play policy like a nazi.  Play in over four hours, you get a warning.  Do it again, you get suspended.  Do it a third time, we cut you a check for your initiation and tell you to not let the door hit you on the way out.

12.  Reasonable guest fees.

13.  I would start by getting a handful of original investors/members and build my membership SLOWLY.  Maybe 10 new members a year.  The screening process would be based on golfing knowledge, skill, community involvement, and personality.  Race, gender, political ideologies, and religion play no part in eligibility.


Granted, there are more things I would include but this would be my ideal club.  The possibility of pulling this off is near impossible, especially in the current economic climate.  I think J.D. at The Palms in La Quinta has come the closest I have seen to this in recent times.  It is a fun golf course with one of the best playing memberships in the country.  Every time you show up, it's all about the golf.  They have limited tournaments, no tee times and a strict pace of play policy.  I can honestly say I have enjoyed every experience I have ever had there and I've played there a lot.

I know this doesn't exactly explain HOW to build a membership but I think if you set out with specific ideas for your club and enforce your policies religiously you'll get that membership.


JF
#nowhitebelt

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2010, 03:02:26 PM »
I have never really understood any merit in this NO TEE TIMES just show up scenario yet I have seen it mentioned not only on here but advocated at golf clubs without booking as a good thing.

Surely it is better to ring up and book a time than turn up and find the course full and you have to wait?

What disadvantage is it to book a tee time, if the course is quiet the starter can operate at 30 minute slots, that starter can space that course so it is paradise in quiet times and save you hanging around time in busy times. If you ring up he can even inform you of better times to miss the heavy or booked periods.

I have always been moderately irritated at getting up at sparrows fart to put my ball in a shute so I can play in 3 hours time.

A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2010, 03:09:22 PM »
Jeff- I must be honest I think your guidelines are almost how not to do it. To a degree its an opinion and we all have things we like others will dislike, but I think finding someone to love ALL of your 13 tips is gonna be tough.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2010, 03:23:41 PM »
Tom Doak:

I don't think the question that I asked is offensive...A great membership should be multiculturally and socioeconomically diverse.  I was, in no way, suggesting that a "great membership" would be elitist!


Bart,

Could you name ten great clubs that meet your criteria ?

Actually,  I'll settle for five.

I don't agree that the mandate for a great membership has to be that the membership is multicultural and socioeconomically diverse, especially when you consider that belonging to a club is a luxury.

You can't have members who can barely afford to belong influencing the decisions on capital improvements, repairs, conditioning, etc., etc..   Once a club caters to the lowest common denomiator, it's on it's way to no longer being a well run, attractive club, or viable club.  If the superintendent indicates that the irrigation system is shot and a new one is needed, almost on an emergency basis, you can't have large elements of you membership opposed to solving the problem because it costs money.

And, you have to differentiate between a GOLF club and a COUNTRY club.

As an admissions chairman at a golf club, one of my first criteria would be, DO THEY EMBRACE THE CULTURE OF "GOLF",
Will they fit in with the other members ?  Will they integrate within the entire framework of the club, utilizing the pro shop, dinning facilities, club tournaments and club functions ?  Can they afford the club and the potential obligations that are a part of most clubs.
And, have they demonstrated a charitable conscience, either by contributing their money and/or their time to worthy causes.

If I'm a member at a club, I don't want any new members admited, PRIMARILY because they represent the club becoming more multicultural or more socioeconimcally diverse.  


Patrick:

I can't name any...see my first post.  I said I didn't know the answers.  Perhaps, I overreacted to my post being questioned as elitism.  I agree that the members have to be willing to do what is needed to care for/update/protect the golf course.  Wholeheartedly agree.  But I do think a degree of diversity of background does add to the vibrancy and strength of the club (or any organization).  The whole idea of time being the key ingredient is fascinating....who has time in this world to wait for such a thing to develop....I guess that is what Ran and Jeff were saying...That in today's climate, the pressure to build a membership quickly is so overwhelming that the results are uncertain.

Bart

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2010, 03:26:35 PM »
Looking at it from another perspective, developing nations, I think it is about education. Finding a manager and pro that inculcate the members with a sense of history, tradition, and fun.

Too many club's I've seen miss the fun part.

Build a modest, functional clubhouse. That alone will eliminate a lot of those joining for other reasons.

.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2010, 04:57:33 PM »
Bart,

Diversity is a great byproduct, but, it shouldn't be the focal point in selecting new members.

Tony,

I'd agree with you about smaller clubhouses, but, then again, I think you have to differentiate between a GOLF club and a COUNTRY club.

I see the trend, over the next decade, toward smaller clubhouses.
I don't think the economics of being all things to all peope will work in this economy and the economy I perceive for the next 5 to 10 years.

Yes, I'm very pessimistic about the economy.

I don't see ANYTHING, from the White House and Congress that promotes, enhances and incentivizes businesses to create more jobs and hire more employees.

The MISNAMED "Stimulus Package" was a failure at stemming unemployment and encouraging commerce.

Had I been able to influence the crafting of a REAL stimulus package,, roads, bridges, tunnels, airports and train stations would have been amongst the first targets for monetary infusion.  Next would have been our manufacturing capabilities.

Subsidizing "BUY AMERICAN" would help to create more jobs in America.

Unfortunately, my vision isn't shared by those in area code 202

Very few clubs in the U.S. AREN'T in trouble, and, I don't see many, if any new clubs on the near horizon, hence clubhouse size is almost irrelevant, but, I agree with you that the days of palatial clubhouses may be over.

Functionality, not glitz, should reign supreme ;D

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2010, 05:01:30 PM »
I have never really understood any merit in this NO TEE TIMES just show up scenario yet I have seen it mentioned not only on here but advocated at golf clubs without booking as a good thing.

Surely it is better to ring up and book a time than turn up and find the course full and you have to wait?

What disadvantage is it to book a tee time, if the course is quiet the starter can operate at 30 minute slots, that starter can space that course so it is paradise in quiet times and save you hanging around time in busy times. If you ring up he can even inform you of better times to miss the heavy or booked periods.

I have always been moderately irritated at getting up at sparrows fart to put my ball in a shute so I can play in 3 hours time.



Adrian

Having been a member of clubs with and without  tee times I MUCH prefer without unless it is a competiiton day.  One thing I have noticed with club tee times are people don't tend to get to the club early because they know exactly when they are playing.  Hence, the atmosphere takes a hit.

Come on folks.  Who has a decent answer or two about guest fees in the States? 

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 05:03:48 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Kevin Cahoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2010, 05:24:54 PM »



Come on folks.  Who has a decent answer or two about guest fees in the States? 

Ciao
[/quote]

Sean,
I find what my club charges as a guest fee as excessive. It limits the amount of guests that I will bring to the course. This is one more reason the UK model works better than the American model.

The explanation I have been given is that if the top public access courses are charging $100 then my club needs to charge an equal amount. Our club offers a better experience so we have to charge accordingly. It's not a decent explanation it is but it is the one I have heard most often.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2010, 05:42:46 PM »
I normally calculate fees in the UK based between 20 x or 30 x the green fee for an annual membership. So a guest fee should be perhaps 1/30th or say a 1/40th an annual subscription.

If you are at a US golf club with $300 per month dues (golf only) $100 guest fee is reasonable.
Our dues are $100 with $50 guest fee.

When you set fees for memberships, green fees, guest fees, society days, specials you have to be aware that by altering the price of one package you affect the value of another. We call it "Making the Mix". As soon as you make a bad call with your pricing someone will spot a back door route that gives him golf cheaper.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2010, 05:47:30 PM »
Jeff- I must be honest I think your guidelines are almost how not to do it. To a degree its an opinion and we all have things we like others will dislike, but I think finding someone to love ALL of your 13 tips is gonna be tough.

Adrian,

If you would prefer to be a member at a club with a pool, carts, not focused on golf, a average to sub par pro and super, exclusionary based on gender, race, or faith, high guest fees, no caddies, a huge restaurant that ups your dues, full of little tournaments like 9 hole mixers, allows a person to buy a family membership with a wife and 8 kids that all play for the same amount you pay, has tee times that can be abused by members that are "in" with the starter, and has lots of outings that close your course once a week... then by all means have at it.  I would venture a guess that we have very different ideas on what makes a great club.


JF
#nowhitebelt

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2010, 05:49:36 PM »
Plus, I added a disclaimer that it was my "ideal" club.  Not one that I said would be completely possible.


JF
#nowhitebelt

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2010, 05:56:00 PM »
Kevin,

I guess this is a very common argument at good member clubs.

I would argue that members bringing guests are more likely to dine and sink a few beers which also raises revenue. Guests are more likely to hit the pro shop for a few $$$ and are also, certainly in my experience, the source of most new members.

Whilst a pay and play may charge $100 for a lesser experience your friends and business partners are also guests. I would expect in many cases  it is the member who pays for the guest, thus higher fees result in less fees, meals, beers, pro shop spend and ultimately new members. Or am  being over simplistic??

Mark
Cave Nil Vino

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2010, 05:59:27 PM »
Jeff- I must be honest I think your guidelines are almost how not to do it. To a degree its an opinion and we all have things we like others will dislike, but I think finding someone to love ALL of your 13 tips is gonna be tough.

Adrian,

If you would prefer to be a member at a club with a pool, carts, not focused on golf, a average to sub par pro and super, exclusionary based on gender, race, or faith, high guest fees, no caddies, a huge restaurant that ups your dues, full of little tournaments like 9 hole mixers, allows a person to buy a family membership with a wife and 8 kids that all play for the same amount you pay, has tee times that can be abused by members that are "in" with the starter, and has lots of outings that close your course once a week... then by all means have at it.  I would venture a guess that we have very different ideas on what makes a great club.


JF
Jeff- Your twisting things.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Kevin Cahoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2010, 06:07:58 PM »
Mark,

You are not being over simplistic. With very few exceptions, if you are my guest, I do not want you to have to reach into your pocket. If my club had lower guest fees I would invite more guests. This might lead to more members. It would certainly lead to more money for the club in terms of revenue from the bar.

Kevin

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2010, 06:18:25 PM »
I normally calculate fees in the UK based between 20 x or 30 x the green fee for an annual membership. So a guest fee should be perhaps 1/30th or say a 1/40th an annual subscription.

If you are at a US golf club with $300 per month dues (golf only) $100 guest fee is reasonable.
Our dues are $100 with $50 guest fee.

When you set fees for memberships, green fees, guest fees, society days, specials you have to be aware that by altering the price of one package you affect the value of another. We call it "Making the Mix". As soon as you make a bad call with your pricing someone will spot a back door route that gives him golf cheaper.

Adrian, we address some of that by not allowing locals to play as guests very frequently.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2010, 06:23:13 PM »
Mark,

You are not being over simplistic. With very few exceptions, if you are my guest, I do not want you to have to reach into your pocket. If my club had lower guest fees I would invite more guests. This might lead to more members. It would certainly lead to more money for the club in terms of revenue from the bar.

Kevin
Kevin -The vast majority of guest fees are paid by the guest. Equally you can make the case that any extra players will bring in more revenue and potential members. People will join if the course is good, offers value but most importantly it has to be located close to where they live, UK demographics are askew a bit to the US but here the vast majority of your traffic needs to come within 20 minutes drive time and rarely outside of 30 minutes. Its important to get the right balance between monthy dues versus guest fee. What relationship is your clubs?
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Patrick Glynn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Great Memberships
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2010, 06:24:05 PM »
I agree that a great membership can exist at an "average" course.

I will say that Deal has one of the best memberships I have ever had to pleasure of meeting. Met Mark & Co on a trip this summer and they were just a great bunch of guys. Pretty diverse gang too; ages, incomes, walks of life, etc.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 06:26:50 PM by Patrick Glynn »

Kevin Cahoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2010, 06:48:21 PM »
Adrian,

I believe my course offer both reasonable value and high quality golf. The location of the course and its demographics have forced the club to search outside that 20 minute drive time. Almost 25% of our membership resides in the city of Chicago, about 28 miles from the club. I find the Chicago contingent are hard core members as the drive requires a certain commitment to begin with.


Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2010, 06:57:35 PM »
Kevin - Yes US travel times are more than UK, we are lazy here. How much is your monthy dues and how much is a guest fee?
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Kevin Cahoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2010, 07:01:46 PM »
Adrian,

Monthly fee is $600. Guest fee is $100. The other caveat is that a guest may only play a total of 5 rounds per year.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2010, 07:08:13 PM »
Adrian,

Monthly fee is $600. Guest fee is $100. The other caveat is that a guest may only play a total of 5 rounds per year.
Kevin your guest fee is very cheap really, that represents 1/72nd an annual sub.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2010, 07:10:57 PM »
Adrian, the models are very different.  Guest fees are a small % of revenue at most US clubs.  High guest fees reduce guest play in many cases. 

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2010, 07:27:24 PM »
Adrian, the models are very different.  Guest fees are a small % of revenue at most US clubs.  High guest fees reduce guest play in many cases. 
Bill - It seems strange to me that in the US you are almost penalised for being a member $600 per month seems a lot if a guest fee is $100, that compares with the very highest in the UK. In fact most of the very good UK courses (say in the top 20) would be about half of that, I can understand the restricting of the number of times the guests can play. Effectively at $600 pm per member and allowing the member to bring a guest at $100 theres a bit built into the 600 to keep the guest fee as low as it is.
I just looked at Deal and its annual sub is about 12x the green fee with the guest fee being 1/60th.
These challenging times could see some big shake ups in the US with that model, if you get a lot that can longer afford their 600 monthlies. Guest and Green fees make up a big percentage of the courses I have been involved with, most UK courses are open to all.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2010, 07:33:23 PM »
Adrian, this has been discussed ad infinitum on this website.....until tax laws change, the UK and US models regarding guest play will remain completely different animals at private clubs. 

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you build a great membership in a club?
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2010, 09:49:08 PM »
The staff gets to vote out one member a year.

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