[Dick Kirkpatrick]

On another thread, Tom Doak's comment about the "designers" in the 1800's laying out a golf course without taking into consideration the views etc, they just wanted to make good golf holes. All this without pictures of other golf courses, Hell, they didn't even have cameras.

How many of our modern architects could come up with an ORIGINAL layout, design etc. without all the modern aids. No pictures, especially of the features including routings, No CAD, no photoshop,

Lets hear your views.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Dick

Did Tom actually say that and did he mean it in the way you have stated.

I wonder because the whole point of the 19th century design was based upon the views linked to the suitability of the ground to play the game of golf. 

Courses were designer to fit the land, to blend and work in harmony with its surroundings so that being the case I would have thought that views played an important part of the selection and design process.

Each course was designer on the merits of the land and so were not necessary a copy of previous courses. In fact my understanding is that copying holes did not start until golf was exported overseas.

Do not dismiss the early designers, they had models made of Greens, there are records of these in the 1880/90. This was 15-20 years before Plasticine model appeared in the 1900 (it was not invented until circa 1905/6). Also the drawings for say Muirfield by Hall Blyth was Dec 1891 but the course was designed in the last few months of 1890, Again we can say the same thing about The New Course designed 1894 but drawing 1895, which seems to indicate that the these new drawings framed in the clubs actually represent the AS BUILT Drawing not the original designs.

Modern architects should be able to design a course with out all the new aids, just like golfers playing without carts and distance aids. It might take time to adjust but it can be done. 

Dick we should not dismiss these early ”designers” because some of us do not understand that they set the standards and the process in motion, yes later designers have improved and developed the design process even further. The 19th Century Designer in my humble opinion were living in the fist and real Golden Age of Golf course design.

Melvyn   

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Melvyn

I can not believe how badly you have interpeted what I wrote.

I am not dissing the old architects, I am calling the modern day guys to task, asking them if they could design using the limited resourses (pictures, magazines etc) that I am sure the new guys use.

This is what Tom Doak wrote:

  Re: Bread And Butter Golf Courses
« Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 10:52:50 AM » Quote 

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Tom_Doak
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I love GCA!


    Re: Bread And Butter Golf Courses
« Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 10:54:17 AM » Quote 

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Most of my favorites of this type are in Scotland.

Heck, even a course like North Berwick is a bread-and-butter course.  It happens to enjoy a tremendous view, but the guys who laid it out were just trying to get some interesting golf out of the ground; they weren't interested in taking photos of the course to market it.

In fact, not only did they not have golf magazines in those days, they didn't even have CAMERAS yet
 
 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Dick

I did not misunderstand your topic, I understand it and I said that I did not think that the modern guys would have a problem, albeit after some adjustment and time.

My point was that the old guys DID consider views, and yes they also considered marketing, but that which was appropriate for their day.

I have seen some and have a few of Old Tom being brought in not just to design but to promote the course afterwards. One being the resort on the Isle of Man at Castletown.  They did have magazines too, Golf started back then as well as the Golfers Guide and other books and magazines.  If you research the 19th century you will see the progressive and fast development of golf reports from the late 1860 to the mid 1880’s before it took off.

My point is that these guys were just as intelligent as we are today and their system was akin to ours but we must judge them in their timeline and not compare them with what we think and feel today.

The other point is that any club that welcomes visitors is by definition a bread and butter course. Yet this is at the heart of the Scottish club game. Nearly all clubs have an open door facility that welcome visitors. When the early clubs were formed they welcomed visitors to help generate finance to buy more land and build better club houses.

TOC is a public course not owned by the R&A or the Links Trust.

As for cameras, how come I have photos from the 1850 of golf courses which become more plentiful as one travels to the 1890’s.

No disrespect intended just trying to balance the details. 

Melvyn 

[Tom_Doak]

Dick:

I'm not sure I understand your question.

The only "modern technology" I use in designing a course (besides construction equipment) is a topographic map.  They didn't use topo maps in Old Tom Morris' day, but Ross and MacKenzie and those guys certainly had them.

A topo map is not ESSENTIAL if you have a relatively open piece of ground, and plenty of time ... in that case, you can just keep walking around identifying holes.  I've just watched Bill Coore take pretty much that approach in Florida.  But even Bill was using a rangefinder to make it easier, and then wanted a good map to scale to draw up his findings.

The map just makes it easier to consider various alternatives and speeds up the process.  I'm sure some of the younger guys here would say the same thing about their computers, but I haven't found the need for that.

And once we are out there during construction, we pretty much throw away all the pretty pictures and just build stuff bare-handed, anyway.

P.S. to Melvyn:  I was not referring to Old Tom's course but specifically to North Berwick, laid out in 1832, which I believe was pre-camera.

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Tom:

That is kind of what I am asking, do they do it like Bill Coore, and probably yourself, by walking the site and finding the golf holes.

The next part is what I am referring to, the modern computerized designer does 3D drawings and photoshops most of the holes.

I guess this is not going anywhere, I don't think I can put across what I am thinking, or some here just don't want to acknowledge it.

[Michael Dugger]

Dick,

From your post I inferred that a topo map was the only resource at hand, correct???

Without you are just drawing lines on a hypothetical piece of property.

Even those designers who discover holes in the field utilize a topo map to get a start on a routing.  

It's utilizing as many natural landforms as possible that is at the heart of minimalism.  Thus, routing golf holes up and over and through and around peaks and valleys is essential.

I think the exercise you are proposing is quite doable, but designing in this fashion surely is not going to take advantage of killer natural features NOT shown in a topo, as well as stunning views, backdrops...fazio "framing" if you will....LOL

Back in the day, that is what a good construction guy was for...to take a good plan and tweak it to best fit the site....

[Mike Nuzzo]

Dick

I use GPS so I know where I am, where I am going and can record what I change in the field
I use Illustrator so I can draw with a digital pencil and easily compute areas and layout rotors
It is easier for me to work with a topo - colors / zoom
I use photoshop to help communicate

I don't need any of the above - I think it makes me more effective so I can spend time on the creative side
Those items would handcuff someone else

[Ian Larson]

Famed Russian novelist Vladimir Nabokov once said, “There is no science without fancy and no art without fact.” 

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Mike Nuzzo

What would you do if you didn't have any of those aids?
 What I am really asking is if you only had the resourses, that is, you ONLY had topo maps would you be able to present your design to a client without using CAD, photoshop et.
 

Mike Dugger:

I think I know what you mean when you say a good construction guy was for, take a design and tweak it. That is something I have done since 1957 on over 100 golf courses.

[Tom_Doak]

Dick:

On a good piece of property, the best way to present your design is simply to walk through the routing and talk about what you'll build.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Dick

Without those tools I could still make a hell of a course.
I can conceptualize, visualize, plan, compose, communicate, draw by hand very well and put in the effort required.
It would take me longer or I'd need more experiences to become as proficient as Tom is with his tools.

I like the Kasperov analogy using a computer to help him be more creative.
Today, if I could create what I thought was a perfect routing, I'd still try more options.
If I did it the other way I'd be less apt to try more options after I came to the perfect one.

[Marty Bonnar]

I'd like to add that 'photographs, CAD and photoshop' also provide something more than just tools to design and build a golf course. In this day and (harsh) financial age, they also act as COMMUNICATION aids for clients, money men and developers.

Your average layman or woman has enormous difficulty visualising 3d stuff in their heads. Even looking at drawings completely flummoxes some folk. A couple of photo-shopped images or a CAD fly-through of a design goes a long way to assisting people (and Greens Committees!!!) in seeing 'what they're paying for'.

I've always seen my computer as a big, expensive, clever pencil. Nothing more, nothing less...

FBD.

[Philippe Binette]

building holes without technology: easy, I haven't seen an official plan on site on all the project I've worked on (except for irrigation, and even then).

routing: I guess technology save times.

To me, a 3D cad model of a course is a complete waste of time, and time is money

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

This is the original question, I think it is quite simple, maybe hard to answer.

How many of our modern architects could come up with an ORIGINAL layout, design etc. without all the modern aids. No pictures, especially of the features including routings, No CAD, no photoshop,

[Tom_Doak]

Dick:

I must be really dense, but I still don't understand your question.  I just don't understand what CAD or any of that other stuff has to do with producing an ORIGINAL design.

Can you give an example of who would pass your test and how?

[Mike_Young]

I need a topo map...once the survey crew has staked the center lines....I never use the drawings...they are there for permits etc....

[Carl Rogers]

Over time I have concluded when building buildings that the topographic map done to 1 foot intervals or 2 foot intervals, inspite of the diligence of the survey crew will have a certain amount of error or interpretation simply due to the "human" factor.  Half the time, trees less than 4" in diameter are missed.  Thus the earthwork trade (in buildings) is never precisely figured.  That is they way it is.

In the world of GCA, a similar issue must be in play thus an improvisional element has to be present.

The CAD does create an illusion of precision that is never there.  Photoshop creates nice marketing products and that is part of it all as well.

[Ron Farris]

In the Year of Our Lord 2000, I was at a site that was so windy that using a topo map was nearly impossible.
I walked the site for several hours, came across a filed stone located mid-site.
With EL-Marko in hand I routed a course, that will likely never be built.

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Tom

What I was attempting to ask, and I guess I understand it but hardly anyone else does, Phillippe came the closest though, and that is try to imagine what it was like to design a golf course back in the 1800's  I don't think it is a complicated question, but a lot of you guys are saying things like "I use CAD" and "photoshop makes it easier to present to your client" and so on.

I did not know they had CAD and Photoshop back then.

[Philippe Binette]

let me rewrite your question Dick :

could you, or do you know somebody who could, design a golf course now without any technological aid for planning ?

so that means:
no Cad or Photoshop for drafting or presentation
no pictures to remember the site between visits
no topo maps or aerial pics

basically that means 18 sticks on a sunday afternoon

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