[Ran Morrissett]

This stems from a conversation I am having at this very moment at a dinner party at my house re: the eleventh at LA North.

Mike Miller's famous painting shows no buildings in the LA. skyline. Now, the existence of distant buildings, one might argue, gives the golfer additional appreciation of the oasis in which he finds himself. Is your favorite view determined by a focal point in the distance or is it determined by the lack of anything man made? Or something else?

Hence, the question: What makes a view a view?

Also, as a sub-question, when does a view become a vista?

Cheers,

 

P.S. Yes, I have an odd collection of folks at my house at the moment as this constitutes vigorous intellectual debate.

[J_ Crisham]

A view is simply what the eyes see , a vista is what the heart feels thru the eyes , think Big Sur.
                                                                                Jack

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Interesting topic Ran. I was actually thinking about something similar to this after playing Broken Sound Old Course in Boca Raton. It is a decent design for a Florida course except that I couldn't get past all the office buildings (including the HUGE/LONG new Office Depot headquarters) around the perimeter of the course. I was constantly distracted by the different buildings on every other hole.

So for now I would answer that the view would need to be sans anything man made.

[JC Jones]

To answer your sub-question, in my opinion, when it expands to cover the entire landscape beyond just the hole and the view directly behind it.

To answer your question, in my opinion, what makes a view is its remarkability.  It has to be unique and tell a story about the hole, the course, etc.  

Example of a vista, the view from the first tee at Crystal Downs.  Example of a view, the 7th tee at Kingsley Club.

[Ronald Montesano]

A view becomes a vista when George Lopez and Paul Rodriguez get a hold of it.  Talk about semantics!  A view and a vista should be the same thing in different languages; to differentiate between the two is contrived and squiggly.

As to what makes them?  I grappled briefly and lazily with this before deciding that God and Nature make a view...until I realized that man, in the image of God and Nature, makes some pretty good views...until I realized that one's own heart and soul determine what a view truly is.  That we agree on it is coincidence; to each his own.

[Bart Bradley]

Ran:

According to the following definition, all vistas are views, but not all views are vistas  

Vista:  1. a view, esp through a long narrow avenue of trees, buildings, etc., or such a passage or avenue itself; prospect a vista of arches

Your guests must be dorks,   I should have been invited..I would have fit in perfectly.

Bart

[Tom_Doak]

That is weird.  I always thought a vista was a wider view ... something you couldn't take in all at once.

[Michael Taylor]

Tom,

That's what I thought it was as well..

Pup

[Greg Murphy]

Evolutionary psychology theory may answer your question. Bob Cullen, in the chapter entitled "Clipped Grasslands" from his book, Why Golf?, reviews these theories as they apply to golf. The premise is that we have been wired through evolution to respond with positive emotions to environments that meet our basic survival needs for food (rich with big game protein) and water and safety (sites of refuge and prospect), as well as our desire for comfort and excitement, freedom and the itch to explore, to satisfy curiosity, and see and experience and learn new things.  We are drawn to landscapes (views and vistas) that evoke feelings related to these things.

See also: www.nytimes.com/2009/02/01/books/chapters/chapter-art-instinct.html

Also see (the hilarious America's Most Wanted): http://awp.diaart.org/km/painting.html

The ideal landscape among cultures the world over is savannah-like, with a mix of open and wooded space, along with water and trees that fork near the ground. Also desirable is a vista that recedes lower and into the distance, especially if it includes a trail (ground or water) that bends out of view but invites exploration.

We all understand how evidence of the hand of man too close to a golf course spoils the view. On the other hand, it may add to the view if sufficiently distant. Why? Maybe because it arouses curiosity and invites future exploration.

[Tommy Williamsen]

That is weird.  I always thought a vista was a wider view ... something you couldn't take in all at once.

It is weird.  I looked up the word vista in four places.  They all said approximately the same thing: "a pleasing view, esp. one seen through a long, narrow opening : a vista of church spires."   I thought it was a wide view as well.  I suspect that most of us use the word that way.  I think we should begin a movement protesting the dictionary use of the word.

[Alex Miller]

Same.


But I think elevation, whether that's the thing that MAKES it or not, plays a crucial role. Almost any view from a high point has the potential to inspire, so that's a starting point.

[Rob Rigg]

So this is a view and not a vista? (by the way - there are a few mountains on either side of this photo)

I'm in the "you thought you knew what a vista was" society.

[Phil_the_Author]

Ran,

In what senese are you using the word "view?" Is it simply what one sees? Or is it a beautiful sight as used in the phrase "What a view!"

I think that you mean the latter and so will give an answer based upon that.

When standing on the green of the 3rd hole of Bethpage Black one looks through the trees left of the green and gets a limited, but still stunning, stunning view of the incredible 4th hole with the tee down and back up to the first plateau and the Glacier bunker gracefully separating the rise to the next plateau.

When you go through the trees, and especially when you are standing on the original lower tee box, the stunniung view from the third green now opens up to an all-encompasing magnificent vista.

So for me, "View" and "Vista" are differentiated by amount seen and where it is being seen from...

[Brian Phillips]

A view can be defined by the actual person himself depending on where he wants to look. You can have beautiful views from the top of a tee but the vista is the actual fairway in front of you.

A vista is normally defined by a framing of the view for example a growth of trees that frames your view or a certain direction you must look for the vista to be created such as described standing on the tee.

Fazio is very clever at creating vistas for the golfer by beautifully framing the view presented to the golfer.  Golfers especially women (IMHO) will often feel much more comfortable on a Fazio course than say a Doak or C&C course because the vista is more clearly defined on a Fazio course and the landscaping much "softer" on the eye than a minimalist design.

The "picturesque" argument in landscape design is a great subject that also has a parallel between architects like Fazio and the minimalist trend.

[Tim Gavrich]

To me, a truly great view gives someone a brilliant idea of where they are and how they fit in the world.  When I play the holes around the old cotton dike at Pawleys Plantation and see the houses on the island and hear the ocean beyond them, I know in a deep way where I am and I am both geographically and historically.  It's incredible to think that I'm playing golf where there used to be cotton fields tended by slaves.  It's fascinatingly unfathomable, how different a time I live in.

I don't mind seeing something manmade on a golf course (e.g. houses), as long as it's not an eyesore.  When I played the Cliffs at Keowee Vineyards, I knew where I was: in an upscale community of golfers.  I could see mountains and fingers of the lake, yes, but also stately houses interspersed.

When I played TOC, I looked at the town of St. Andrews and the spit of land the course occupies and could not help feeling the historical rush.

When I played Crumpin-Fox up in middle-of-nowhere Massachusetts some years ago, I felt like I was playing golf at a summer camp in the wilderness.  I could see basically nothing but dense woods all around and I felt an acute, almost Thoreauian intimacy with Nature.

[Mark Alexander]

I'm with Tom on this one, as the following images might illustrate. I would argue the first is a view while the second is a vista.
Actually, the first time I read this thread I thought it might be a question of semantics; splitting of hairs if you will, but the more you get into these things...

[Sean_A]

No, a vista is most certainly what is beyond the foreground funneling the view.  I think of a vista as essentially man made though I am certain vistas are found in nature.  Think of the architectural set-ups in europe where there are vistas through an arched gateway over a hill etc.  Or a tree lined avenue leading to a villa/statue/fountain.  The word is bound to have Latin origins.

I don't know if this is actually the case, but I think of a view as unimpeded.  

Essentially, I am saying practically the exact opposite of everyone else!

Ciao

[Brian Phillips]

I don't know if this is actually the case, but I think of a view as unimpeded.  

Essentially, I am saying practically the exact opposite of everyone else!

Ciao

Sean,

You and I are in agreement.

A vista is a "directed" view of an area whereas a view is an unimpeded look of the landscape in front of you.

The Oxford definition for "vista"

a pleasing view, especially one seen through a long narrow opening

Vista to me is a framed or defined view.

As I mentioned earlier, a vista can be created on the tee (in fact it is the only place on the golf course we can definitely do this).  We place the golfer on top of the tee and say to the golfer, here is what I created for you a vista (a defined place to look) of the golf hole (the fairway), now you decide where you want to hit the ball.

After the tee, the golfer creates his own vistas everytime he stands over where his ball landed.  The view is the vista and everything else outside the vista.

As designers we are creating "landscape rooms" for the player to be in, the tee, the fairway, a bunker and finally the green.  We can only control one point of the journey when it comes to vistas and that is the tee.  Every other vista is created by the golfer himself.  We just create the area he plays within but the actual vista is defined by the golfer by each shot they play.

That is why 4 golfers can have such a different opinion on the quality and the beauty of a golf course.  They have all played in different vistas some however get more "vistas" than others, the better the player the less vistas they get!

[Mark Alexander]

Brilliant thread. Who would have thought on a rainy morning in Fife I would be discussing the intricacies and nuances of the English language, on a golf site? More importantly, I’ve had my long-standing views changed by sound argument.

[Tom_Doak]

Interestingly, Sean and Brian [both from Europe] have the correct dictionary definition of view vs. vista, while most of us Americans have always thought it was the other way around.

Brian, you are right about the difference between Tom Fazio's use of vistas and mine.  I would rather give you the whole view, and just use the main focal point of it to direct people's attention [i.e., I will usually line up the golf hole toward the distant focal point].  That isn't a product of landscape architecture school, just personal preference, with a bit of MacKenzie influence as he seemed to do the same thing.

What makes you say the Fazio method is "softer" on the eye than a minimalist design?  Maybe I don't understand the word "softer," either.

[Brian Phillips]

With all the pictures I have studied of Fazio courses he seems to use the Humphry Repton (the first to call himself a "landscape gardener") and Capability Brown style of soft and manicured shaping of fairways.  Whereas I liken the minimalist style (yours) towards that of Sir Uvedale Price and Richard Payne Knight who both advocated natural more "picturesque", unkempt-looking landscapes.

If you found a pimple in the landscape that gave the hole some more quirk or created another area of strategy in the hole, you would incorporate that into your design.  Repton, Brown and Fazio would bulldoze it away and soften that area because to them it would be just that, an ugly "pimple" in the landscape.  To me and you it is an opportunity to create even more thought and fun in playing the hole.

The "picturesque" argument was not "pretty" enough for it be successful whereas Repton and Brown's work was more commercial and therefore received more recognition even though to many (including myself) Repton and Brown altered the landscape for the sake of altering it just for revenue not because they really believed in what they were doing.

You design for the love of designing golf courses and your obsession with golf courses whereas Fazio is probably just a commercial entity.  You travel the world still analysing golf courses in down times (like I do), according to one interview, Fazio just plays more golf at his home course.

I find your book The Confidential Guide very similar (in my way of thinking   )to that of Sir Uvedale Price's book An Essay on the Picturesque which criticizes the "unnatural" shaping and forming of Repton and Brown.  Many of the courses that you do not like are shaped ON TOP of the landscape instead of IN and WITH the landscape.  Shadow Creek is probably one of the few that gets a thumbs up in the book that is not shaped with the landscape or is sustainable with it's natural surroundings but is totally created alien to it's landscape.

[Gary Slatter]

what do you call the view from the CNN tower?

[Brian Phillips]

what do you call the view from the CNN tower?

A view.  It cannot really be called a vista because your area of vision is not being directed anywhere but the horizon and beyond and you can choose where you look.

Even on a tee, if you look down the fairway that would be IMHO be a vista, whereas if you turned away from it and decide to look elsewhere it would probably be a view into the open landscape.

[Jud_T]

A good view, or vista, in terms of GCA includes no nearby man-made objects save for a modest, well-designed clubhouse IMHO.  Of course, I'd take a great strategic course next to a dump and a cemetary over a dogtack on the ocean....

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have always considered a vista something distant, not necessarily framed and narrow, but I understand the definition.

Brian,

As to saving the pimple, my thoughts have always been "how many tee shots are actually affected by that few square feet?  I am going to guess that most designers would figure smoothing makes more shots that are similar react similarly, rather than have different results for the same shot.  If you are going to build in a strategy, randomness seems not to fit the bill, but if you leave areas big enough for most people to actually figure on hitting, then some smoothing usually results.

I have always thought Fazio directs the eye by grading his fw in a valley (whether it was there or not) It is very comfortable hitting into a valley (as opposed to the ridge runner no. 2 at Sand Hills) and that is his prime focus, along with aesthetics. 

Directing the eye is very important. Golf is one of the few areas of landscape desgn where you really CAN direct the golfers view.  In a public square or street, you don't really get to control their movement and positioning, but all golfers end up on all tees and greens in the same relative spot.

MacK did it more with his scattered bunkers because he couldn't move as much earth, IMHO, whereas its cheaper for modern guys to shape rather than build bunkers. Different means to the same end.

Just my 0.02

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