Bayonne or Liberty National

[Bill Rocco]

I will start out by saying I have not played either of one these courses. I have seen the pictures, both display great views of NYC and the statue of liberty, and have grand clubhouses. There has been some criticism of liberty from the Barclays last year but do you think either of these courses located about 3 miles apart will ever make it to the top 50, top 100?

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

Candidly, for all the talk that Shadow Creek gets for being an engineering marvel -- I'd give my vote hands down to Bayonne and what they had to do to get the project underway and completed.

I don't know if it's top 50 -- likely no on that front from the ones I have played -- but it could grab a top 100 placement because there's plenty of fun and entertaining holes there. No doubt those who prefer courses to be located on natural pieces of property will be quick to dismiss it.

On LN -- I'd say the comments from many of the pros at last year's Barclays was spot on. Just a long and very tedious course in plenty of areas -- the best holes happen to be the shorter ones but given NJ's top tier layouts I don't see it remotely sniffing a top ten Garden State placement so a top 50 / 100 USA wide is not doable in my opinion.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I played both in the same day.  LN first and Bayonne second.  I was bored with LN after five holes.  It wasn't that it didn't have difficulty holes or even some very good holes.  It just lacked that something that makes you want to play.  After fours hours at Bayonne all I wanted to do was go back to the first hole again.   Top 50?  No. Top 100? Maybe.  Bayonne could contend, however.  However, the wow factor may elevate the club higher than it deserves.

[PThomas]

I played both in the same day.  LN first and Bayonne second.  I was bored with LN after five holes.  It wasn't that it didn't have difficulty holes or even some very good holes.  It just lacked that something that makes you want to play.  After fours hours at Bayonne all I wanted to do was go back to the first hole again.   Top 50?  No. Top 100? Maybe.  Bayonne could contend, however.  However, the wow factor may elevate the club higher than it deserves.

i did the same Tommy, Bayonne in the morning, LN in the pm....and fell the same way, although i liked Bayonne quite a bit

its really no contest which is better

[Scott Stearns]

this is easy

Baltusrol

or just go to 21 for a long lunch  52nd and 5th

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt, Tommy & Paul,

I'd agree.

What puzzles me is how, with an enormous budget, LN got it so wrong ?

Could it be that THE key or linch pin to a good golf course starts with the developer ?

[C. Squier]

Matt, Tommy & Paul,

I'd agree.

What puzzles me is how, with an enormous budget, LN got it so wrong ?

Could it be that THE key or linch pin to a good golf course starts with the developer ?

Pat, I couldn't help but think that the bit of land that extends further into the bay HAD to be part of the original plans for Liberty National.  Whatever the reason, it wasn't used for (I believe) 3 holes and that forced all 18 into the land that originally called for 15 holes.  The course felt claustrophobic to me.

[Jeffrey Stein]

I caddied at Bayonne for the first three seasons it was open, for the first two seasons the caddy shack consisted of two tables behind a trailer in the parking lot, not fun on a 95 degree day in July.  Having carried at the course over 100 times and playing it on mondays, I have gained a special love/ hate relationship with this course.  It is a fun golf course with some of the most unique holes in the NY area.  I always got a kick when I could tell people to aim at Lady Liberty's torch on the approach to 16 green.  I hated this course for the ridiculously high fescue on EVERY hole and the sidehill mountain climbing required to find the frequent wayward tee shots.  For the average player Bayonne can be quite diffucult because of the trouble that surrounds each hole and some forced carries.  However there is ample fairway to aim at and very large greens as well.  Bayonne is supposed to be a template golf course, like Old Mac, but none of the classic holes are clearly evident.  Berstol's version of the redan, a steep downhill approach to a green built into the side of a hill sloping right to left, is not the best I've seen, but an honest attempt at capturing the strategy of a classic hole. 
Its hard to say how high Bayonne will get in the rankings but I cant remember carrying for anyone with discouraging remarks on the golf course.

[Jeff Spittel]

I have not had the chance to play LN, but I thought Bayonne would have been an excellent course even without the views. There is plenty of trouble if you are really spraying the ball but the fairways are more than generous. I found the approach shots and the greens to be very challenging.   

[Jay Flemma]

I have played both and written about both.  I go back to Bayonne regularly.  Bayonne is the real deal, just superb in every way.  LibNat underscores all the architectural errors of the 80s and costs far too much for too little.  Overpriced and underdesigned.  They built their business model on the Statue and the views.  That's not golf design.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeffrey Stein,

My first comment on Bayonne was that they needed to thin the Fescue, that finding your ball shouldn't take five minutes every time, and that once you found it, you didn't want to break a wrist getting out, but, the deep, wirery Fescue may have been the result of trying to achieve instant maturity on a new course.

With thinned out Fescue, it's much more enjoyable.

The WIND sees to that.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

If you think Bayonne is bad - then don't venture to a few of the Irish courses which are even narrower than Bayonne yet command world attention for their designs. I found Bayonne to be quite playable and minus one or two examples where it becomes a bit more narrower the range of play options is certainly there.

For all the talk that Shadow Creek engenders -- Bayonne, in my mind, is the best example in creating something with the most imaginative of efforts.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Matt, Tommy & Paul,

I'd agree.

What puzzles me is how, with an enormous budget, LN got it so wrong ?

Could it be that THE key or linch pin to a good golf course starts with the developer ?

Pat, I couldn't help but think that the bit of land that extends further into the bay HAD to be part of the original plans for Liberty National.  Whatever the reason, it wasn't used for (I believe) 3 holes and that forced all 18 into the land that originally called for 15 holes.  The course felt claustrophobic to me.

I can't remember exactly how many acres Bergstal had to work with, but not as many as one would have hoped.  What I thought was brilliant was the way Bergstal separated the holes by elevation changes rather than space.  Pretty ingenious if you ask me.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

I have a lot of friends that have caddied at both and I have yet to hear positive things about Liberty other than the views. Just about all prefer Bayonne.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

If you think Bayonne is bad -

You'll have to point out where I said or implied that Bayonne was bad

then don't venture to a few of the Irish courses which are even narrower than Bayonne yet command world attention for their designs.

I've been driving the ball fairly well for the last few years.  On occassion I could go for two or three rounds and not miss a fairway, but, some of Bayonne's fairways were narrow, bllind to semi blind, swept by wind and bordered by deep thick Fescue that made finding a ball an exercise in pot luck and extricating a ball an exercise in brute strength.

When Bayonne first opened, the Fescue presented a challenge beyond the golfer's ability.

My criticism was that the Fescue needed to be thinned.
This Spring I should know if the Fescue presents a reasoned challenge

I found Bayonne to be quite playable and minus one or two examples where it becomes a bit more narrower the range of play options is certainly there.

On a day with normal winds, I'd be willing to bet that you couldn't shoot to your handicap

For all the talk that Shadow Creek engenders -- Bayonne, in my mind, is the best example in creating something with the most imaginative of efforts.

I'd agree.
What Eric created is quite impressive, including the clubhouse

[Mike Nuzzo]

Could it be that THE key or linch pin to a good golf course starts with the developer ?

Yes.
And it isn't a requirement - a really good designer can make something special with an average developer.
Maybe a developer that doesn't f it up is one of the linchpins.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

I don't see it that way.

The developer has to be the visionary.
He's the one that selects the architect, and in most cases, he's visualized or conceptualized the product he wants to offer, hence, the architect will do HIS bidding.

While the best combination is a quality developer and a quality architect, I think it all starts with the developer.

Sand Hills, Bandon Dunes, Pacific Dunes, Bandon Trails, Old Macdonald, Hidden Creek, Ballyneal, Friar's Head and others all had quality developers.

Off the top of my head I can't think of a well respected golf course where the developer didn't have a clue.

Maybe there are some, but, none come to mind at the present time.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Off the top of my head I can't think of a well respected golf course where the developer didn't have a clue.

It would be hard for you to know where a client gave 100% free reign.
But that in itself is quite a powerful and maybe smart decision.

[Rob Rigg]

Mike - I think "maybe" is the key word in your quote above.

Free reign can lead to greatness, or garbage.

I would imagine that free reign has been given to many "signature" designers over the past forty years and it has not led to much. I wonder how many "great courses" were the product of "free reign" (hopefully it is quite a few).

However, those owners with vision - that is more mixed to the "positive" side thanks to Keiser, Youngscap, Parsinen, etc. (offset by Trump - usually - and all the RE dev owners/developers who wanted cart ball water hazard xanadus). Not on a percentage basis, but on a "great success" basis.

[Sean Eidson]

I don't even think "Free Reign" exists.  There are always constraints in the development process.

I have some experience as a real estate developer, not golf course developer, but I'd say that the development process is full of creative compromise to manage constraints.  How do I get the most out of what I have to work with?  There are hundreds of decisions that make up the ultimate vision for the development that the developer almost always has to make on his own due to the "winner's curse" involved.  Ultimately, the developer takes a huge leap of faith that he can pull together the pieces needed to achieve a vision that is a more valuable use of the land than any other option.  In effect, he bids for the land with his vision and his ability to make it come to be is what generates the return.  Choosing the right architect is a very important decision, probably among the top three, along with site selection and capitalization.  But it's a part of the development process that the developer owns.

LN had to deal with some of the most onerous constraints possible for a golf course - with the flatness of the land and the confined site.  I've obviously never played there, but judging by the comments on the board and from the tournament, that seems to me to be a failure of creative compromise.  What would Pete Dye have done with a small, flat site and virtually unlimited earth moving budget?  Sawgrass II?

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

You'll have to specify the holes in question where Bayonne is excessively narrow. As I said before -- which you simply glossed over -- places like Dunluce at Portrush are far more penal in that regard but nonetheless are raved about by many inspite of the pain and time spent for lost balls caused.

In regards to any betting challenge -- more than happy to have a friendly wager.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

You'll have to specify the holes in question where Bayonne is excessively narrow.

Let's start with # 4.
Or # 12

Then, let's factor in either the blind to semi blind holes and/or holes that can be doglegged, like, # 1, # 2, # 6, # 7, # 8, # 9, # 10, # 13, # 14, # 16, # 17 and # 18.

When the course was relatively new, the Fescue was well beyond an amateur's ability, to cope with, especially on a normally windy day.
Lost balls were the norm, not the exception, slowing down the rounds considerably 

As I said before -- which you simply glossed over -- places like Dunluce at Portrush are far more penal in that regard but nonetheless are raved about by many inspite of the pain and time spent for lost balls caused.

I didn't "gloss over" it, I haven't had the pleasure of playing it, so I can't comment or make comparitive analogies.

In regards to any betting challenge -- more than happy to have a friendly wager.

I'll settle for drinks after the round, although, I'll have to set a limit as I can't afford a DWI

Eric's three dimensional design is extremely creative, almost genius if you will, but, early on, that Fescue was too difficult for any amateurs I know, and I know a few.

[Dean Paolucci]

I'll weigh in with my sentiment.  I played both and loved Bayonne!  LN was too contrived for my taste.  I really appreciated the lengths that Bergstol went to regarding ageing the course.  Down to wear patterns on the wooden steps.  I walk off every time wanting to go back to the first tee.  I think the walkers only position is a real plus.  I contend that the only negative is the range.  LN is much superior.  Bayonne's aqua range is only good to warm up.  I don't think you get true feedback hitting into the Hudson.

DEAN

[Matt_Ward]

Dean:

Well said about the lack of a range -- but if someone has the $$ they can practice at LN and then head over to Bayonne to play.

Only wish that was the case for mere mortals like us all.

Pat:

You see Bayonne vastly different than I do. If you played Dunluce at Portrush you'd fine a layout where excessive penal outcomes happen because of the narrow corridors that resemble fairways and the hay-like rough that borders a number of those holes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'll weigh in with my sentiment.  I played both and loved Bayonne!  LN was too contrived for my taste.  I really appreciated the lengths that Bergstol went to regarding ageing the course.  Down to wear patterns on the wooden steps.  I walk off every time wanting to go back to the first tee.  I think the walkers only position is a real plus.  I contend that the only negative is the range.  LN is much superior.  Bayonne's aqua range is only good to warm up. 


I don't think you get true feedback hitting into the Hudson.

Wouldn't that depend upon whether or not you're a member of the Lucchese, Bonanno, Gambino, Colombo or Genovese families ?