[Adrian_Stiff]

Adi,

Tut tut! - you have forgotten Robin Hiseman and myself (I have done 2 golf courses and Robin had done a few before he joined EGD)

Ben,

Robin has not done any 18 hole courses under his own name.  He has been project architect on a number of 18 hole courses but they have been for Hawtree and EGD.  With EGD he gets pretty much a free go at it so I would say that his first 18 was the Czech Republic course and then Riffa in Bahrain.  But it is still working for someone else. 

Adrian has forgotten a couple of others including Graeme Webster (my partner) who has done Kings Acre, Inhcmarlo, Pumpherston and Meldrum House in Scotland to name a few low budget but nice tracks.

Ben & Brian - I did the cut off at 5, I do have you down for one Ben. I have 4 for Graeme Webster; Meville, Inchmario, Meldrum House and Kings Acre. Pumpherston I have Glen Andrews?. My list is a bit out for Irish stuff as well.

[Jamie Barber]

Who knows - the new owner could extend Princes from 27 holes to 36 holes if they overcome financial and planning constraints!

There is no new owner - Troon golf are now managing day-to-day running, and working with EGD on course changes, but this is primarily nips and tucks, new bunkers, tees etc, not re-design or extension.

Although there is room, I don't see that there is the market to justify the expense of another 9.

[Robin_Hiseman]

Robin has not done any 18 hole courses under his own name.  He has been project architect on a number of 18 hole courses but they have been for Hawtree and EGD.  With EGD he gets pretty much a free go at it so I would say that his first 18 was the Czech Republic course and then Riffa in Bahrain.  But it is still working for someone else. 



[/quote]

Brian

I know you are being mischievous, but perhaps you ought to check your facts before you make statements about my career.  My project listings in the membership directory of the EIGCA will help you.

Robin

[Mark Pearce]

Scott Macpherson's new course in Durham.

Ben,

Scott's course at Close House is not only not in Durham, it's not even in County Durham.  The North East might all seem like an amorphous blob to some but it matters to the locals.  Close House is a few miles west of Newcastle upon Tyne and is in Northumberland.

[Brian Phillips]

Robin has not done any 18 hole courses under his own name.  He has been project architect on a number of 18 hole courses but they have been for Hawtree and EGD.  With EGD he gets pretty much a free go at it so I would say that his first 18 was the Czech Republic course and then Riffa in Bahrain.  But it is still working for someone else. 

Brian[/b]

I know you are being mischievous, but perhaps you ought to check your facts before you make statements about my career.  My project listings in the membership directory of the EIGCA will help you.

Robin


[/quote]
Robin,

Sorry, I wasn't trying to mischievous.  I don't even know how to spell that...  If I understand it correctly from the EIGCA you have the Balfron golf course in Scotland.  I apologise.

[Jonathan Davison]

485 course between 1990 - 1999

I really cannot think of any courses designed by a UK based Architect during this period which stands out as anything special.

I have enjoyed the following.

Linden Hall - Jonathan Gaunt
Craigielaw - Tom Mackenzie
Wynyard Hall - Hawtree
After these 3, I am struggling. Somebody help, they must be more good courses built during this period.

[Ben Stephens]

Adi,

I have to make my target 6 then! does that includes complete remodels? - if so that will be still tricky due to the current demands and economic climate.

GCA

There have been a number of people who have designed and built golf courses who are not members of the EIGCA. I know Roger Fitton (who used to be the pro at Thorpe Wood in Peterborough now run by Simon his son) alongside his late father Dennis was responsible for the designs of Orton Meadows (Peterborough), Elton Furze (nr Peterborough) and Toft Hotel (nr Bourne in Lincs) all low cost courses which have matured over the last 10 years.

To me some designers work in the UK are 'localised' like myself (Rutland area), the Fittons (Peterborugh area) and Adi (South West - Bristol/Bath area)

Cheers
Ben

[Sean_A]

There are several newish courses near me that have not made much of an impression

Redditch by Penninck - its ok, but wet

Abbey Course at Redditch - no great shakes

Gudet Luce near Droitwich - wet and not terribly good

Bank House near Worcester - poor

Ravenmeadow in Worcester - ok

Ombersley between Worcester and Kiddermminster - poor

The Vale near Evesham by Sandow - ok, some good holes

The Grange between Evesham and Stratford - poor

The Welcombe at Stratford - ok, some good holes

Puckrup Hall between Worcester and Tewksbury is pretty good

Belfry - pretty good, but wet

Forest of Arden - good course, probbaly the best new one anywhere near me. 

However, the best newish I have seen are Carne, Donegal (Hacket) and Bearwood Lakes (Hawtree).

Ciao

[Brian Phillips]

Ben & Brian - I did the cut off at 5, I do have you down for one Ben. I have 4 for Graeme Webster; Meville, Inchmario, Meldrum House and Kings Acre. Pumpherston I have Glen Andrews?. My list is a bit out for Irish stuff as well.

Glen Andrews was Graeme's company as well.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Ben & Brian - I did the cut off at 5, I do have you down for one Ben. I have 4 for Graeme Webster; Meville, Inchmario, Meldrum House and Kings Acre. Pumpherston I have Glen Andrews?. My list is a bit out for Irish stuff as well.

Glen Andrews was Graeme's company as well.

It might not be a bad idea for me to circulate this database to a few of you and you could make additions and corrections. I have the 3 that Ben mentions in those exact names of Roger on his own for EF and him and his dad for the other ones;

Ben - Remodelling is a difficult one, I did not count them but there must be a point I suppose when its so significant it should count. I have a few of my routings that have been used are they mine or not? Austin Lodge and Sweetwoods Park (although there were quite a few common holes used in mine and Neil Coles' and I think Reg Plumridge's too) the one that was used was mine but with a par 3 - par 4 5 & 6 as opposed the other way.

There should be a book on Great British Golf Architecture. There are a lot of intersesting ones that have done 1 or 2. I also only have about 55% of the courses with known architects.... maybe my job for next winter!

[Robin_Hiseman]

Brian

Apology accepted.  

Adrian

I suppose I ought to add the tally of my current employer European Golf Design, to your list.  In the UK there is The Marquess at Woburn, Marriot Hollins Hall near Bradford, Dale Hill in Sussex, Marriot Worsley Park, near Manchester, Marriot Sprowston Manor near Norwich, Rowallan Castle, near Kilmarnock, Montgomerie Course, Celtic Manor and of course the 2010 Ryder Cup Course at Celtic Manor, although approximately half of it was originally the RTJ2 course, with a few added tweaks.  All bar Dale Hill have been designed by Ross McMurray, EGD's Mr. UK!

Castle Stuart is for me the standout new course of the past decade.  Machrihanish Dunes made a strong impression on me and I have enjoyed immensely both rounds I've had on the Castle Course.  The Rennaisance is, I think, a grower.  It didn't grab me fully at first play, but I think it is a good club track, that will stand the test of repeated play.  I can take or leave The Torrance or Kittocks.  Always happy to play there, but i wouldn't go out of my way.  The new Duke's Course is terrific however.  I'm keen to see the new
Dave Thomas Spey Valley course in Aviemore and a sleeper that I thought was very enjoyable was Remedy Oak.  I've not played Queenwood and I look forward to seeing the Kidd/Kimber creation at Gleneagles.  Paul says it's something pretty special.

Lot's of high profile new work in Scotland.  Not so much in England.  In addition to Remedy Oak I can think of Seve's 'The Shire', Luton Hoo and Hawtree's Wychwood Park.  Anyone else care to add to the list?   

[Tom]

Sean

How would you rate Kings Norton?  You are clearly from very close to me juding by the courses you list?

Tom

[Sean_A]

Sean

How would you rate Kings Norton?  You are clearly from very close to me juding by the courses you list?

Tom

Tom

It's alright, nolthing special.  It is only about 35 minutes away and I only go there every few years for the Gold Medal.  I live in a particularly dire area for golf.  The Brum and northern Brum courses are a bit too far to join and heading south is the same.   

Where do you live?

Ciao

[Niall C]

Brian

Apology accepted.  

Adrian

I suppose I ought to add the tally of my current employer European Golf Design, to your list.  In the UK there is The Marquess at Woburn, Marriot Hollins Hall near Bradford, Dale Hill in Sussex, Marriot Worsley Park, near Manchester, Marriot Sprowston Manor near Norwich, Rowallan Castle, near Kilmarnock, Montgomerie Course, Celtic Manor and of course the 2010 Ryder Cup Course at Celtic Manor, although approximately half of it was originally the RTJ2 course, with a few added tweaks.  All bar Dale Hill have been designed by Ross McMurray, EGD's Mr. UK!

Castle Stuart is for me the standout new course of the past decade.  Machrihanish Dunes made a strong impression on me and I have enjoyed immensely both rounds I've had on the Castle Course.  The Rennaisance is, I think, a grower.  It didn't grab me fully at first play, but I think it is a good club track, that will stand the test of repeated play.  I can take or leave The Torrance or Kittocks.  Always happy to play there, but i wouldn't go out of my way.  The new Duke's Course is terrific however.  I'm keen to see the new
Dave Thomas Spey Valley course in Aviemore and a sleeper that I thought was very enjoyable was Remedy Oak.  I've not played Queenwood and I look forward to seeing the Kidd/Kimber creation at Gleneagles.  Paul says it's something pretty special.

Lot's of high profile new work in Scotland.  Not so much in England.  In addition to Remedy Oak I can think of Seve's 'The Shire', Luton Hoo and Hawtree's Wychwood Park.  Anyone else care to add to the list?   

Robin

Can't really comment on the English courses but interested in your Scottish list.

Dukes - I thought the old course had some really good golf although it was a very hard walk tee to green if you didn't have a buggy. I believe the revamp has left many of the holes intact apart from change from revetted to frilly edge bunkers but the big difference appears to be the new routing. Is it noticeably better ir is it just shuffling around the pack ?

Torrance/Kittock - I played the old courses several times and agree with your assessment but haven't played the revamped courses, have you ?

Spey Valley - Interesting course in some spectacular scenery but you can't help feel one or two of the holes are contrived and that with the amount of land they had that they could have done better. Of course, SNH might have had something to do with that.

Looking forward to trying to play some of the others this year.

Adrian

Looking at the list above I was surprised myself looking at it how many were bi budgte destination courses rather than local courses for the local market. Given most of them were built with American money, do you think that Toms point about the nationality of the developer has something to do with architects operating in the UK not getting a chance to develop a CV on these type of courses ?

Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

Niall - I am not too clear on what you exactly mean so this answer might not be relevant. I think the great pieces of land have now pretty much gone...there is one on the South Wales coast. The ones like the Trump/ Aberdeen are hard to get planning, normal developers would not even try..the big developers are naturally going to use the names... Id use Tom Doak over Adrian Stiff if I was investing millions.
Us second tier architects in the UK get farmland for golf.
I dont think my courses will get rave reviews from this GCA sector, but pro's like them because they are fair, most of them have held third tier pro events, county championships etc. They all have full memberships and they make money.
I've not seen much modern architecture that inspires me other than the minimal stuff we see here, ie TD, CC, GH. I liked what Tony Risolta has done/doing in Poland as well.

[Kevin Pallier]

And 'Which three courses built in the past decade (that was then 1993-2003 but you can make it 2000-2010 if you wish) that YOU highly recommend?'

Non Brits and Non Architects are, of course, free to give their two pennyworth.

Mark

I presume you are referring to those designed by GB&I architects ? ie: Craddock and Ruddy count ?

I reckon in the last 20 years I enjoyed Allis' etc work at Woburn (Marquees) and thought Torrance's work at St. Andrews Bay was OK.

No love for Faldo's ~ Chart Hills ?

[Mark Chaplin]

I like Chart Hills but it sits on some pretty heavy clay. 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 8th, 10th, 15th and 18th are very good holes all in all Faldo did a good job there. Not sure about it's commercial success though.

[Brian Phillips]

I like Chart Hills but it sits on some pretty heavy clay. 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 8th, 10th, 15th and 18th are very good holes all in all Faldo did a good job there. Not sure about it's commercial success though.

Maybe because most of it is Steve Smyers...

[Niall C]

Niall - I am not too clear on what you exactly mean so this answer might not be relevant. I think the great pieces of land have now pretty much gone...there is one on the South Wales coast. The ones like the Trump/ Aberdeen are hard to get planning, normal developers would not even try..the big developers are naturally going to use the names... Id use Tom Doak over Adrian Stiff if I was investing millions.
Us second tier architects in the UK get farmland for golf.
I dont think my courses will get rave reviews from this GCA sector, but pro's like them because they are fair, most of them have held third tier pro events, county championships etc. They all have full memberships and they make money.
I've not seen much modern architecture that inspires me other than the minimal stuff we see here, ie TD, CC, GH. I liked what Tony Risolta has done/doing in Poland as well.

Adrian

Yes, apologies, I was havering a bit. I guess what I was trying to say was how do you become a big name in the first place.

BTW I'm not sure you're right regarding the quality of sites being a factor. St Andrews Bay, Dukes Course, Castle Course are built on heavy soils while Castle Stuart and Kingsbarns aren't much better agronomy wise although I think they are better ie. less clay. None of them are on pristine links like Trumps course but all are big courses and I presume have been successful to some degree given that they are being discussed on here. All of the ones listed above are clustered around St Andrews so there no brainers however Castle Stuart is in the arse end of nowhere with only a regional airport to keep it company.

If you applied the local demographics principle that you have used for your courses it wouldn't even have been considered never mind be built, yet it is clearly very successful both commercially and critically as a design.

So the question then becomes, do British course developers, in conjunction with their architect, need to rethink there business model to try and cater for a global market ?

Niall

[Gary Slatter]

Niall, interestingly the TORRANCE COURSE was originally built to attract overseas players to stay and play at the resort.  In 2007 almost 95% of the play (33,000 rounds) was from domestic golfers.  While the visitor wants to play the Old, KB and the classics, the local player enjoys playing the Torrance and Devlin (now the kittocks).   Many told me they liked "the american feel" of the courses, which the owners quickly responded to and redid the Torrance to be be more locally authentic and F&F.  After it re-opened last July it has been well received by the locals, PGA Seniors and visitors.  It is a walking only venue while the Kittocks (Devlin) has buggies and is popular with visitors who are knackered after walking the Old and Kingsbarns, often the first time they have walked in years!
Alas, the Torrance and Kittocks were touched up by Gary Stephenson (Whisper Rock) with input from Sam (Scotland) and Johnny Robertson (England).  Neil Ballingal the super is very scottish and very good, he knows his local grasses (and should have patented the mix).

[Adrian_Stiff]

Niall - I am not too clear on what you exactly mean so this answer might not be relevant. I think the great pieces of land have now pretty much gone...there is one on the South Wales coast. The ones like the Trump/ Aberdeen are hard to get planning, normal developers would not even try..the big developers are naturally going to use the names... Id use Tom Doak over Adrian Stiff if I was investing millions.
Us second tier architects in the UK get farmland for golf.
I dont think my courses will get rave reviews from this GCA sector, but pro's like them because they are fair, most of them have held third tier pro events, county championships etc. They all have full memberships and they make money.
I've not seen much modern architecture that inspires me other than the minimal stuff we see here, ie TD, CC, GH. I liked what Tony Risolta has done/doing in Poland as well.

Adrian

Yes, apologies, I was havering a bit. I guess what I was trying to say was how do you become a big name in the first place.

BTW I'm not sure you're right regarding the quality of sites being a factor. St Andrews Bay, Dukes Course, Castle Course are built on heavy soils while Castle Stuart and Kingsbarns aren't much better agronomy wise although I think they are better ie. less clay. None of them are on pristine links like Trumps course but all are big courses and I presume have been successful to some degree given that they are being discussed on here. All of the ones listed above are clustered around St Andrews so there no brainers however Castle Stuart is in the arse end of nowhere with only a regional airport to keep it company.

If you applied the local demographics principle that you have used for your courses it wouldn't even have been considered never mind be built, yet it is clearly very successful both commercially and critically as a design.

So the question then becomes, do British course developers, in conjunction with their architect, need to rethink there business model to try and cater for a global market ?

Niall

Niall - I would say you become a big name by three methods. Win lots of golf championships so people are conned into thinking you will be brilliant at something else that just has the golf word in it. Spend ££$$$£££ on seling yourself and conning your way into peoples minds that you are good. Actually be good. From my point of view I have no desire to design or build a golf course in Bradford and 2 years ago I turned down $800,000 to go to Korea for 6 months. I like local although I would love a job Costa del Sol because I partly live there or even the Algarve.

Those sites may have heavy soils but they have great views. Views you cant buy, soils you can. In the scheme of what some courses cost £2,000,000 to rootzone the whole course may be practical. I would say those sites were great sites and whilst they were not natural there was enought tilt to make an attractive golf landscape.

Castle Stuart and its demographics is my worry too. I think the course looks great but its an 8-10 hour drive from London, yes you can fly but its not easy and it becomes crazy money, all the time CS is narrowing the possibiities of profit. If there were 3 or 4 courses, then perhaps but the problem with Scotland is weather, Americans may love it, but Brits go South not north.

The future for new GB golf courses I think is close to zero. If you want to be commercial you need to do your sums backwards and have £20 per round golf courses, if it does not stack up at 35,000 x £20 dont do it, and if it makes £150K per annum, dont spend more than £2M. The problem with land costs now is that 150 acres take up a big chunk and leaves litte for construction and clubhouse or a £100,000 design fee. It probably ciosts an average £50,000 to just get planning now as well.

For Brits working abroad, we should do okay.

[Tim Nugent]

Adrain, I'm a late comer to this thread but think (for the most part) posters have a good handle on things.  You see the fall-off after 2000, I would offer that this also happen here in the US.  Perhaps what happened here, happened over there.  9-11.  After the terrorist distruction of the World Trade Towers - using commercial aricraft - there was a great tendency for what was termed "cocooning".  People just abruptly stopped traveling by airplane.  Add to that the fall in the Dollar vs the Pound/Euro, higher oil prices and additional terrorist activity in England and it's no surprise that business models built on Destination golfers fell apart.

As for "all the great sites have been built", I've been hearing that for my entire career.  Although I would agree that most all of the Low Hanging Fruit has been picked.

Why have foriegn developers shied away from local GCA's?  Perhaps it is a combination of wanting to security of knowing what the track record is and not alot of accolades going to local GCA's.  It's the same over here.  For every Marquee name, there are probably a dozen or so of what you refer to as 2nd tier and I as Journeyman GCA's.  We are more local, do soild work that golfers seem to enjoy (most of our courses stay in the black).

I'd be careful about associating work product with budget. The "I could do that if I had your budget)" is a copout, because it's apples and oranges, no actual comparision is possible because every project has too many different variables.  Besides, you would probably agree that the site has more to do with it than the budget.  In fact, most budgets go down, not up, with a better and/or bigger site.  Tom Doak (from what I can see) typically doesn't spend very much money. I suggested for Goerges next Arm-Chair architect site be one with the type of constraints we Journeyman have to face - much like the late Robert Muir Graves and Goeffery Cornish used to do in his Harvard Short Course.

Lastly, across the pond, it doesn't seen that there is a big residential real estate component in new golf projects, which would help offset much of the planning, and marketing expenses.  This last fact was ommitted from the "how to become a Big Name Architect" list.  If you do Big residential/resort projects that have BiG marketing budgets you get the benefit of all that marketing (for free).  This is the "Jones" model and it self-perpetuating.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tim I pretty much agree with your post. There are great sites out there but planning laws and conservation tighten ups mean these are no go's. Residential and Golf does not really happen here. Ireland may be different, but rarely do we get housing around a golf course. A typical golf course is worth £2,000,000 typical farmland is worth £1,500,000 if it got housing it would be worth £75,000,000. The dream of 99% of UK golf operators is that someone in planning puts the white line around your golf course.

I accept what you say about TD and budgets, I think you can create a fantastic golf course from a flat site if you have money and I do believe money will overcome many hurdles, what you wont get for money is the backdrop. I think what TD has done/ does is great and its the look I like that mirrors the old but with a new flavour. I like CC and GH also. When I have had bigger budgets I have buit bumpy fairways, I have never had a great bunker building team and either the money has run out or I have often left the project before they are finished and I think in cheaper constructions you dont get great bunkering. In some respects great greens evolve out of 1 acre of land not 600 squared metres, its the feeding into them that makes a great green site, bunkers are the same, the real great bunker is many times the sand size.

[Tim Nugent]

Adrain, help me out. What's a "white line"?

I agree about the views but I think it's more about the immediate periphery of the holes.  Tom has been blessed with sites where all the terra-forming has already been done by God and he can just concentrate on the play areas.  To construct all that from a flat site would cost huge sums of money (just ask Herb Kohler what Pete Dye spent at Whistling Straights).  To be fair, one should also look at the public course Tom did in Colorado or the Texas Tech site to see what the results are if given a "run-of-the-mill" site.

Why is it, especially with the recent run-up (although that's now busted) in UK housing prices, some RE/golf projects didn't happen?  Is there just a different mentality/cultural preference over there?  I mean, do people like living in urban/suburban housing rather than around a golf course?  Or is it just that they don't put any additional value on it the way we do over here?

[Tom]

Tom

It's alright, nolthing special.  It is only about 35 minutes away and I only go there every few years for the Gold Medal.  I live in a particularly dire area for golf.  The Brum and northern Brum courses are a bit too far to join and heading south is the same.   

Where do you live?

Ciao
[/quote]

I live in Bromsgrove.  I agree it is not a great area.  I used to live in Surrey and get down to Deal, RSG, Princes, Walmer & Kingsdown a lot but we moved further north when we had kids as we did not want to bring them up in London.

I miss links golf.  I try to go up to Scotland once a year as I have a friend who lives in Lossiemouth.  I play a round at Moray (which I do think deserves more attention than it gets on here - bit of a hidden gem in my opinion) and then drive up to Dornoch for 36.  I've played Tain and Nairn as well.  The problem with living round here is that you are so far from the coast!

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