[Mark_Rowlinson]

Back in 2003 Ran interviewed me soon after I had joined GCA. He asked me a question that I probably should have answered, 'I don't know.' But I was green and tried to answer, probably foolishly. It was: What is the current state of affairs of golf course architecture in GB&I? What are three courses built in the past decade that you highly recommend?

May I then ask GB and I architects, 'What IS the current state of affairs?'

And 'Which three courses built in the past decade (that was then 1993-2003 but you can make it 2000-2010 if you wish) that YOU highly recommend?'

Non Brits and Non Architects are, of course, free to give their two pennyworth.

[Jaeger Kovich]

I really enjoy DMK's Queenwood in Surrey, its always one of my favorite golfing experiences, but its also probably the most extravagant and exclusive club built in that time frame too.

[Tim Pitner]

How telling is it that no one other than Jaeger has responded?

Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart, Renaissance Club and Machrihanish Dunes would seem to be likely nominees.  Dundonald?  Carrick's course near Loch Lomond?  Something by Pat Ruddy?  To reference another thread, is anyone currently building "bread and butter"-type courses in GB&I? 

[Mark Pearce]

In the last decade in the North East of England I think there have been a few.  They would include Close House (and GCAer Scott Macpherson is currently working on a second 18 there), an additional 9 holes at Matfen Hall and Rockliffe Hall.  Of those the only one I've played is Matfen and it isn't anything to write home about.

It is interesting that the courses that spring to mind which by definition are the high profile ones were mostly done by US architects.

I imagine Adrian Stiff will contribute to this thread when he sees it.

[Niall C]

How telling is it that no one other than Jaeger has responded?

Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart, Renaissance Club and Machrihanish Dunes would seem to be likely nominees.  Dundonald?  Carrick's course near Loch Lomond?  Something by Pat Ruddy?  To reference another thread, is anyone currently building "bread and butter"-type courses in GB&I? 

Tim

If I read Mark's original post correctly he was referring to British and irish architects, not courses built in this country.

Of the ones you've listed Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart, Renaissance and Dundonald were designed by Americans while the Carrick was designed by a Canadian. You could add Craighead to that list as it was desifgned by Gil Hanse. Mac Dunes was the only one you mentioned which was designed by a Brit, MacLay Kidd, but a Brit who got his start largely in America.

Ruddy has done a few courses in Ireland but I'm not sure he has done any elsewhere. I also think I'm right in saying his first was the European which was his own site, and the rest of his instructions followed from there. How good he is I can't really say but seeing some of the changes at Murvagh, Donegal that were attributed to him didn't do anything for me.

MarK P cited Mafton Hall which personally I quite enjoyed the one time I played it but wouldn't ever claim it was great. Thats about as far south as I've played in terms of new courses. With a few exceptions as listed above, I suspect that the average british course ie course built in UK, has a smaller budget than the average US course and I would surmise there have been a lot less built over here.

I would suggest that the guys in the UK and Ireland maybe don't get the same opportunities to develop because simply they are swimming in a smaller pond. Maybe thats why quite a few, some of whom are on this site, have to work abroad.

Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

I would suggest that the guys in the UK and Ireland maybe don't get the same opportunities to develop because simply they are swimming in a smaller pond. Maybe thats why quite a few, some of whom are on this site, have to work abroad.

Niall

Niall,

although I agree with much of what you say I would suggest that working abroad is not just something that GB&I GCAs do and I am not sure it has anything to do with the size of the pond. Take Tom Doak, how many of his courses have been outside the states. I am not sure of the % but it has been a few and I am sure that is not due to home been to small a pond!!!

Kidd, first break Gleneagles???

[Mark Pearce]

Niall,

As a Crail member I thought of the Craighead, but it opened in '98, so outside the last decade.

[Niall C]

Jon

I notice that none of the UK architects on this site have been tempted to post but I'll hazard a guess that guys like Brain Phillips, Robin Hiseman and others spend most of their design time on overseas courses. I could be wrong of course.

With regards to Tom D, I'm sure Tom can add his bit but I suspect he had a fair few courses under his belt before he worked outside the US. Again I could be wrong.

All the courses that Tim listed were fairly prestigeous jobs, I wonder how many UK architects got a sniff at them ? Is it a lack of talent ? I doubt it. Or is it to do with the guys that did get the job already having a good CV ?

Niall

[Brian Phillips]

Niall,

Guess who was also on the list for the Castle Course....Robin Hiseman.   

Robin works for EGD now so he doesn't need any courses in Britain although I think they have one maybe starting with year in Scotland.

We have an 18 course in Dundee called Kingennie that Graeme has routed and I have done the grading plan for but it is still in planning stages and the council are not being too helpful at the moment...hopefully we will get the go ahead this year.

Why do British architects not get more work at home? Here are a few maybe?

• The design work from the British designers in the 70s and 80s was very poor and this had a knock on effect to now?
• The North American designers are much better than the Brits at selling themselves until the greatest British salesman of all came along, David Kidd
• Someone told me once (who was head of a major project in Britain now ranked very high) that British architects didn't know how to move or plan to move large quantities of earth to create great golf holes

[Tom_Doak]

I didn't read the question as being limited to British or European architects.  I just didn't have much to add, and didn't want to appear as stumping for my own course.

I think it's only natural that there are not a lot of fabulous new courses in Britain.  There are so many great courses there already, all of them built for peanuts, that it is very difficult to build a course at modern costs that could compete successfully in the marketplace.

In fact, there are not many British DEVELOPERS of modern golf courses, period.  Aside from housing estates, many of the modern courses built in the UK are built by foreigners who dream of developing a course in Scotland.  Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart, The Renaissance Club, Loch Lomond and Dundonald are ALL owned by Americans; and David Kidd's new course near Gleneagles is owned by Saudis, I believe.  An American developer is not so likely to hire a UK architect for a whole variety of reasons ... I suspect that was the real reason in Brian's final example, too.

[Gary Slatter]

IMHO I would think the UK designed Abaco Club in the northern Bahamas is the most inovative course in the last decade, a tropical links course with paspalum grass.
Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart are good american courses, in the UK. Renaissance Club is interesting, I've only played it twice in heavy rain. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

The golden period for the UK was really quite short maybe 1989 - 1994. Its not been great here for a long time, I have done two 18 holers and an additional 9 holes in that period 2000-2010; The Players Club, The Stranahan and Cumberwell Park. I dont think there will be any significant work in the UK for new golf courses for some time, perhaps nearly a generation, we have too many courses now.
I think we do have the skills, but the higher profile courses with bigger budgets go to names. I have never bothered joining EIGGA, when I wanted to join the association that preceeded it I never ticked their boxes because I wanted to do design and build, I don't see many of those architects doing UK stuff but there has been enough until now abroad. Kingsbarns must be the #1. Remedy Oak is well thought of. Castle Stuart will certainly go top 50, the Castle course at SA got rated 67 in the last GW list.There may be newer Irish courses that I have forgotten.

Since the war
1940- 1949 - 16 new courses
1950- 1959 - 20 new courses
1960- 1969 - 54 new courses
1970- 1979 - 218 new courses
1980- 1989 - 156 new courses
1990- 1999 - 485 new courses
2000- 2010 - 35 new courses (approx)

[Mark Chaplin]

Tom Doak - you are certainly right about the business model over here, apart from a few success stories one of which is the Wisley, big money ventures are unlikely to succeed in the UK. The Wisley has a pretty good 27 hole course with very good facilities, the difference is the club is in an area where the best clubs require sponsors, seconders, 10 signatures, etc, etc so a successful person cannot just join the best local club.

Of the US owned clubs you named how many are actually a financial success? Why would a well heeled overseas visitor spend $50k + to join a new Scottish or Irish club when they can take a couple of overseas memberships at top clubs for $500pa each, stay in good hotels and be thousands of dollars better off. Also join a top local links club and you meet locals not fellow players from IL, FL, CA, NY, etc.
 

[Niall C]

Brian/Tom

Some excellent points that are well made. Is it then the typical business model in this country that makes things more difficult ie smaller budget. Or is it fewer really good sites with more restrictions ?

Adrian

Are you saying '89 to '94 was the golden age in terms of number of new courses built or are you referring to the quality ?

Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

Brian/Tom

Some excellent points that are well made. Is it then the typical business model in this country that makes things more difficult ie smaller budget. Or is it fewer really good sites with more restrictions ?

Adrian

Are you saying '89 to '94 was the golden age in terms of number of new courses built or are you referring to the quality ?

Niall

Niall - Both I suppose, I was referring to the number of courses built really. Pretty much half of our courses buit in the last 70 years were built in a window of say 1989 - 1994 but a quick scan and yes very little of any quality was built after WW2 to 1989. 

[Tony_Muldoon]

Since the war
1940- 1949 - 16 new courses
1950- 1959 - 20 new courses
1960- 1969 - 54 new courses
1970- 1979 - 218 new courses
1980- 1989 - 156 new courses
1990- 1999 - 485 new courses
2000- 2010 - 35 new courses (approx)

Adrian seeing this list is eye opening and raises a million questions. You have a good handle on the market and I was wondering.
Golf courses are planned several years before they open. Hence the economic bullish 60’s begat a boom in the troubled 70’s that subsequently led to a fall in openings in the really bullish 80’s, leading to that staggering figure for the nineties.  I also recall a report from the EGU pointing out there was a huge potential untapped market. When was that the 70’s?  What caused the collapse this century when we had the longest bull market on record right through the planning period?
To the best of my knowledge only Hawtree as a firm has survived from pre WW11 and earlier.  Who were the dominant players in each decade and did any firm ever have enough dominance to influence the market in the way that Fazio and Nicklaus have in the states?

Along with the state of the UK market was the development of Costa del Golf in Spain; did British Architects have much influence there?
Significant players?
Dave Thomas / Peter Allis
Howard Swann

Who else?

Sorry for all the questions but I’d be interested to know more.  Thanks.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Since the war
1940- 1949 - 16 new courses
1950- 1959 - 20 new courses
1960- 1969 - 54 new courses
1970- 1979 - 218 new courses
1980- 1989 - 156 new courses
1990- 1999 - 485 new courses
2000- 2010 - 35 new courses (approx)

Adrian seeing this list is eye opening and raises a million questions. You have a good handle on the market and I was wondering.
Golf courses are planned several years before they open. Hence the economic bullish 60’s begat a boom in the troubled 70’s that subsequently led to a fall in openings in the really bullish 80’s, leading to that staggering figure for the nineties.  I also recall a report from the EGU pointing out there was a huge potential untapped market. When was that the 70’s?  What caused the collapse this century when we had the longest bull market on record right through the planning period?
To the best of my knowledge only Hawtree as a firm has survived from pre WW11 and earlier.  Who were the dominant players in each decade and did any firm ever have enough dominance to influence the market in the way that Fazio and Nicklaus have in the states?

Along with the state of the UK market was the development of Costa del Golf in Spain; did British Architects have much influence there?
Significant players?
Dave Thomas / Peter Allis
Howard Swann

Who else?

Sorry for all the questions but I’d be interested to know more.  Thanks.

Tony - The R & A or EGU commissioned that report late 80s I think and it said that we needed another 700 golf courses. One of the big flaws and schoolboy errors within that report was the counting. They asked all the golf clubs how long is your waiting list and they simply totted up the numbers forgetting that Mr Jones was on not ony 2 lists but had been accepted by XYZ golf club last year. Some clubs had lists to join lists. One of the first courses I did we filled up the membership in about 2 months with a couple of 1/8th page ads, when it opened we had 150 on the waiting list, that was 1992, the course was in an area with not much golf, I have built better golf courses since but they have never been as easy to fill the demand for golf is low at the moment.
I dont see a too many new ones in the next 20 years, we are obviousy oversupplied, they are lots of distressed sales and anyone wanting a course can get one cheaper than buiding their own, and another problem is that UK land costs have gone up dramatically, land is maybe 150% more per acre than 10 years ago, agricultural land never got out of that £3000 per acre zone for ages but its well out now. Its going to be tough in the UK for GCA.
From the war as you say Hawtrees have aways produced golf courses, Cotton and Pennink did quite a bit through to the 70s, Hamiton Stutt must have done a dozen or so, Henry Cotton perhaps a dozen. Donald Steele probably started mid 60s and is one of the most prolific through to the 90s. John Day is an unknown and Bob Sandow lots,
Cotton & Pennink 27
John Day 9
Jack Nicklaus 9
Donald Steele 43
Bob Sandow 23
Henry Cotton 10
Alliss/ Thomas 13
Dave Thomas 11
Alliss/Clive Cark 15
Hamiton Stutt 10
Hawtrees 59
Adrian Stiff 12
John Harris 5
John Jacobs 15
David Wililiams 17
Charles Lawrie 5
Neil Coles 13
Howard Swann 15
Simon Gidman 10
John Gaunt/ Steve Marnoch 16
Patrick Tallack 6
Cameron Sinclair 7
Reg Pumbridge 6

UK architects have not done that much on the Costa del Sol. Dave Thomas is about the only one.

[Robin_Hiseman]

Jon

I notice that none of the UK architects on this site have been tempted to post but I'll hazard a guess that guys like Brain Phillips, Robin Hiseman and others spend most of their design time on overseas courses. I could be wrong of course.

Niall

In my case you would be right.  Just about all my design work is overseas.  Jobs completed in the Czech Republic and Bahrain.  Denmark due on site next, though as Brian prefaced, our project in Scotland is looking good.  We are at an advanced stage of planning and the first site trial pits have been dug.  I can't see too many more UK projects in the offing though.

[Brian Phillips]

Cotton & Pennink 27
John Day 9
Jack Nicklaus 9
Donald Steele 43
Bob Sandow 23
Henry Cotton 10
Alliss/ Thomas 13
Dave Thomas 11
Alliss/Clive Cark 15
Hamiton Stutt 10
Hawtrees 59
Adrian Stiff 12
John Harris 5
John Jacobs 15
David Wililiams 17
Charles Lawrie 5
Neil Coles 13
Howard Swann 15
Simon Gidman 10
John Gaunt/ Steve Marnoch 16
Patrick Tallack 6
Cameron Sinclair 7
Reg Pumbridge 6

I am lost for words...not many on that list that I would be inspired by....and we wonder where British Golf Course Architecture went to after Colt and MacKenzie....

[Tom_Doak]

Hawtree has built 59 golf courses?

What is the most noteworthy of them -- besides the one they haven't started yet?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Hawtree has built 59 golf courses?

What is the most noteworthy of them -- besides the one they haven't started yet?

Tom I suspect Hawtrees are past the 100 as my list is from 1946 to now. I think the thing to respect is that many of us are designing to budgets, we are regional architects doing the best we can with our pen and minimal £££. I might get the respect in 50 years time when Open championship qualifiers are played regularly at my courses. The difference is i have designed and built to a budget understanding market conditions and forces, my course might not make the world top 10, but they make money, they make the people enjoy fun golf and they have produced good players. I know I can do what you can do can if I am given the money. Its like writing your next album I have already got 14 good songs for the next one. Its actually harder to design a golf course handicapped by financial restraints because you know you could do better. Hawtrees are in that mode.And I do still think what you do is great.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Thanks Adrian I will investigate those names many of whom are totally new to me.

Hawtree has built 59 golf courses?

What is the most noteworthy of them -- besides the one they haven't started yet?

Two that I’ve played and liked
Cardigan (although I’m blushing at that rating now) a low budget gem.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30982.0/

and Bearwood Lakes – other end of the spectrum and perhaps not as great as the land might have given up?
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41242.0/

I think Lahinch is post war and I’ll also confess to liking the new greens at Hoylake.

I also understand contractors are in place for the new project.

[Ben Stephens]

Adi,

Tut tut! - you have forgotten Robin Hiseman and myself (I have done 2 golf courses and Robin had done a few before he joined EGD)

My outlook for the UK GCA market is most of the work in the next 20 years will be rebuilds and extension to existing golf courses whether it is to increase yardage by building new holes or increasing the number of holes. If we are lucky there will be new golf courses such as Castle Stuart and Scott Macpherson's new course in Durham.

Hotel developments are the ones that are more likely to extend their golf course (eg. Ramside Hall in Durham is to extend from 27 holes to 36 in the next few years) as well as rebuild the course (eg. Belton Woods are currently going through a total bunkers rebuild program on both courses in the newt few years).

Established courses are being redesigned (most likely new tees and relocated bunkers to keep up with the changes in distance eg Luffenham Heath has gone through this change by Hawtree recently)

Who knows - the new owner could extend Princes from 27 holes to 36 holes if they overcome financial and planning constraints!

Cheers
Ben

[Brian Phillips]

Adi,

Tut tut! - you have forgotten Robin Hiseman and myself (I have done 2 golf courses and Robin had done a few before he joined EGD)

Ben,

Robin has not done any 18 hole courses under his own name.  He has been project architect on a number of 18 hole courses but they have been for Hawtree and EGD.  With EGD he gets pretty much a free go at it so I would say that his first 18 was the Czech Republic course and then Riffa in Bahrain.  But it is still working for someone else. 

Adrian has forgotten a couple of others including Graeme Webster (my partner) who has done Kings Acre, Inhcmarlo, Pumpherston and Meldrum House in Scotland to name a few low budget but nice tracks.

[Brian Phillips]

I know I can do what you can do can if I am given the money.

That is a pretty hefty statement Adrian.

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