[Lenny Polakoff]

Baltusrol would be another great example

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

I included PB  and CPC in the title.

Poor reading comprehension.......

[Dan Byrnes]

I think it is mostly due to operations.  No need to build, staff and stock halfway house.  The ability to supervise staff.  All of is is controlling costs.  Perhaps also liquor liability.

Dan

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

I should have qualified this thread by limiting the discussion to private, not resort courses, but Pebble is such an icon in American golf that I had to include it.

Neither does WFE's 9th

Lenny,

Great call, neither the upper or lower return to the clubhouse

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think it is mostly due to operations.  No need to build, staff and stock halfway house.  The ability to supervise staff.  All of is is controlling costs.  Perhaps also liquor liability.



Dan,

GCGC, PV, PB, Piping Rock and many others don't have halfway houses at the 9th green.

I would tend to discount the reasons you cite, especially the liquor liability

[Tom_Doak]

How many great modern courses don't have the 9th green returning to the clubhouse, (main or functional).

Patrick:

Of my own courses, these are the ones which don't return to the clubhouse at the ninth [hole at which they return to clubhouse in brackets; NR=no return]:

Black Forest [NR]
Stonewall [both courses actually return at the 8th green]
Pacific Dunes [returns at #7]
Old Macdonald [NR]
St. Andrews Beach [NR]
Stone Eagle [NR]
The Renaissance Club [8th]
Rock Creek [15th]
Bay of Dreams [2nd]
Streamsong (Blue) [6th]

Dismal River II [NR]
Mulan Bay, China [10th]


I'm luckier than most architects in having a lot of clients who won't make me build returning nines if I tell them the golf course is better for it.  I have had a few who asked me to change the original routing to make the course return at the 9th -- Cape Kidnappers is the only one of those which is highly ranked.  For Barnbougle Dunes and Sebonack and Ballyneal, the best routing just naturally worked out that way.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

In your efforts to produce the best golf course, how do you convince the owner/developer that a non-returning course is more than just incrementally better than the returning course.

And, why do they want a course where the 9th hole returns to the clubhouse ?

What are their reasons ?

And how strong are their arguments, other than the argument that they're paying the freight.

[Mike_Young]

Piping Rock, Fishers Island and The Creek are three others that fit the profile.

Mark Studer and TEPaul got it right.

None of these great cousres have the 9th green returning to the clubhouse.

With so many GREAT, early courses not returning to the clubhouse after 9, when did that trend change ?

What caused it to change ?

Was it the expanding demographic ?

The increase in the number of golfers accessing the courses ?

How many great modern courses don't have the 9th green returning to the clubhouse, (main or functional).

You mean my answer was wrong?   come on....an 18 hole loop is the same thing isn't it...

[JSlonis]

Honestly, lads. Lighten up. The thing that made me chuckle was the suggestion that Mark was somehow risking invites to private clubs - presumptuous to say the least.

Presumptuous?  How so?  I thought my comment was lighthearted. 

For those that don't read every word on every thread, Mark's initial remark without his later editing seemed like an a'hole comment. Given all the media coverage of the recent college sports sex scandles here in the US, it didn't ring at all funny to many here.  I'm not one for political correctness, but as someone who is fortunate to know quite a few members at some of the clubs mentioned, I thought the comment to be in poor taste. No big deal.

Now...back to thread...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Yes, I should have included you.

I don't see "commercialism" as an influence at Private clubs, but I'm open to hearing that premise.

I wonder if the trend away from non-returning nines had to do with the expanding popularity of golf and the "beginner", those that didn't want to experience the rigors of 18 holes, because they felt their games weren't up to it ?

Even today, many clubs have formalized  " 9 holer"  groups.

Donald Ross wrote the the ideal routing would be two returning loops, yet, Pinehurst # 2 doesn't come anywhere close to returning.  But, I don't believe that # 2 was ever intended to be a private course.

Does siting the clubhouse predetermine or limit the routing ?

[jeffwarne]

Courses used to be 18 hole loops because that's how they filled 2-2 1/2 hours.
Now they do it with 9

[Mark Saltzman]

Perhaps a dumb question, but... If in the past there was a much greater focus on matchplay than strokeplay, why is it that more golf courses were not routed such that a hole in the 13-16 range returned to the clubhouse on the presumption that many matches would end before the 18th?

[Tom_Doak]

Perhaps a dumb question, but... If in the past there was a much greater focus on matchplay than strokeplay, why is it that more golf courses were not routed such that a hole in the 13-16 range returned to the clubhouse on the presumption that many matches would end before the 18th?

Mark:

It was more common for them to think about having the SECOND hole come back to the clubhouse, in case a match went extra holes.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak,

In your efforts to produce the best golf course, how do you convince the owner/developer that a non-returning course is more than just incrementally better than the returning course.

And, why do they want a course where the 9th hole returns to the clubhouse ?

What are their reasons ?

And how strong are their arguments, other than the argument that they're paying the freight.

Pat:

Most of my clients have told me they want a great course, so if I tell them the course will be better if it doesn't return at #9, it's hard for them to argue.

When they do object, it's usually on the basis that they think they will get a certain amount of nine-hole play, and they are uncomfortable with the idea of letting one loop be ten or eleven holes instead of nine.  Also, occasionally, they are thinking about a tournament and a multiple-tee start.  [Of course, they manage to run tournaments at places like Pebble Beach with its tenth tee way over in Carmel, but it's not ideal.]

One of the criteria for the Olympic course is that it has to be designed in two loops of nine holes.  [I believe the PGA Tour Design Services wrote the list of criteria.]  On such a flat site, that probably doesn't make enough difference to the design that it's worth arguing about.

[Bill_McBride]

Perhaps a dumb question, but... If in the past there was a much greater focus on matchplay than strokeplay, why is it that more golf courses were not routed such that a hole in the 13-16 range returned to the clubhouse on the presumption that many matches would end before the 18th?

Mark:

It was more common for them to think about having the SECOND hole come back to the clubhouse, in case a match went extra holes.

Like several George Thomas courses.   

[Ian Andrew]

pat,

I get your point about the advantages, at least I assume that's your point.

But I think nine holes was always a desire.
Here's all the historically significant courses from around Toronto

1906 Missisaugua - loop of 18
1912 Toronto - Colt - returned after nine
1912 Summit - Cumming - loop of 18
1914 Hamilton - Colt - returned after nine
1919 Rosedale - Ross - loop of 18
1922 Weston - Park - returning nines
1922 Thornhill - Thompson - loop of 18
1922 York Downs - Alison - returning nines
1926 Scarboro - Tillinghast - loop of 18
1926 Oakdale - Thompson - returning nines
1929 St. George's - originally returned after nine - clubhouse location moved to sell real estate

It's a perfect split, the loops are mostly a result of the shape of the land parcel.

[Adam Clayman]

The only other trend is price. I'd be surprised if before 1980, any of theose course were over $50 to play as an accompanied guest.

We can all thank Pebble for that rise and therefore, the trend.

As for Pebble's short Par 4's... there's MacKenzie's favorite, the 3rd, along with the 4th. Not to mention the 7th (  ) and then the 15th & 16th combo. They were never too long to begin with, although Interestingly enough, both 15 and 16 play farther than they feel, or appear on paper.

[Patrick_Mucci]

So, why did the pattern of non-returning loops fall out of favor ?

Why do most modern golf courses return to the clubhouse after nine holes ?

Was the non-returning loop a victim of golf's increasing popularity ?

[Kevin_Reilly]

So, why did the pattern of non-returning loops fall out of favor ?

Pat, was it a "pattern" or just some (high profile) data points that you noted above that are actually outliers?  Seems to me that the choice between returning and non-returning was site dependent and not necessarily a style point beyond that.  In the Bay Area, Meadow, Pasatiempo, Harding, San Francisco, Presidio, California, Lake Merced, and Stanford (to name a few older courses) return.  Olympic returns after eight, and another Watson course nearby, Orinda, also does not return.  But those two are due to the fact that the clubhouse setting does not allow for a return after nine...nothing more beyond that, and I'd have a hard time building a long list of courses like them.

As an aside, for next year's Open the 9th tee will be used for the split tee at Olympic because the 10th tee is so far away from the clubhouse.

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