[Tony Weiler]

I enjoyed watching the tournament this weekend at Torrey South.  I have a question, why no love for that course?  I have played it, and it was very difficult, but I thought challenging.  I'd love to play it again.  I think it makes you pick spots from tee to be on correct side of fairways, has good bunkering, and greens that are well designed, fun and challenging.  I think the holes along the ocean are scenic, but also challening.  I think it has some great holes.  Anyway, Tom Doak gives it a 3 in the CG.  I mean, a three?  So to him, it's "an average" course?  I think it's much better than that.  I'd give it a Doak 7, 6 at a minimum.  That is, an excellent course, soundly designed, interesting holes, and a pretty setting.  Thoughts?

[Craig Van Egmond]

The course that Tom Doak wrote about in CG no longer exists, maybe some of the routing is in tact, but all new greens, bunkers, tees, etc.  It may be up to a  4 now.

I still prefer Barona.

[Richard Choi]

For a course that is right on the ocean, memorable holes are few and far between. Most holes share the exact same template; fairways pinched by bunker left and bunker right, green fronted by bunker left and bunker right, vary the length, repeat.

The course barely taps the enormous potential that the site has. For that, I think the course deserves its rating from Tom. I have played it twice and I have no desire to go back there ever again (especially at those prices).

[Chuck Brown]

I don't want to speak for Tom Doak, but paraphrasing TCG, what he said was that the Torrey Pines bluffland was so spectacular, that every architect that sees it, thinks he could have routed two better golf courses.

If you ask me what I'd rather be doing right now; sitting in my office or playing Torrey Pines, I will say Torrey, no matter what it got on the Doak scale.

My problems with Torrey Pines is not so much the structure of the golf course as the grass.  Or, to be precise, the grasses.  They must have 25 different kinds of grass in different places.  It is like a science project.  A golfing arboretum.  And not terribly nice in that regard.  And if you ever want to drive yourself nuts, missing 3 foot putts; Torrey is the place to do it.

Still, I enjoy it every time I go there.  The North course isn't bad, either.  Good atmosphere, too, for a muni.  Helps that $185 nonresident greens fees keep the riffraff out.

[Richard Choi]

Dang, Chuck is calling me a riffraff...

[Tim Leahy]

I lived in SD for two years and played the courses about 40 times pre US Open redo at the resident rate($40 with a cart). I was disappointed at first because there are no spectactular holes, but came to appreciate the subtleties of the course and greens. With the rough up the South  is one of the toughest courses in Cali. I still wouldn't pay $185 to play it, but I wouldn't pay $100 to play Barona either.

[Chuck Brown]

Dang, Chuck is calling me a riffraff...

Heck, I thought you were a resident!  I was going to ask you to adopt me.  Or just live with you long enough to get a drivers license and voters registration.

[Kalen Braley]

Still, I enjoy it every time I go there.  The North course isn't bad, either.  Good atmosphere, too, for a muni.  Helps that $185 nonresident greens fees keep the riffraff out.

So the local riff-raff will have plenty of spots open to play themselves??   

[Chuck Brown]

Still, I enjoy it every time I go there.  The North course isn't bad, either.  Good atmosphere, too, for a muni.  Helps that $185 nonresident greens fees keep the riffraff out.

So the local riff-raff will have plenty of spots open to play themselves??  

They're a better class of riffraff.  You know, ex-military and all...  

[Edit. - To note that this will be the last time I use the term riffraff at GCA...]

[Anthony Fowler]

It seems like 85% of the love for Torrey South on this site comes from me.  As I've said before, I was very lucky to play Torrey over 100 times because they charged $10/month for high school kids in San Diego to play in the afternoon.  Between all those afternoon rounds, Junior World, Buick qualifiers, other junior tournaments, and high school matches, I have seen the South course under all weather conditions and course setups.  The course is a blast to play, and I would give it at least a Doak 7 (maybe 8 ).  Holes 3, 7, and 13 are some of my favorite holes that I have ever played.  Additionally, I think that 18 is the only truly weak hole on the course, because it is a generic, gimmick hole that doesn't make use of the natural features of the land and doesn't fit in with the rest of the course.

With that being said, nobody is more disappointed than I am to think about the lost opportunities at the South course.  The general routing is very good, but I wish they could have taken more advantage of the natural features of the land.  Too many holes move along the edge of the cliff or canyon without ever bringing the natural feature into play. 

How great would it be to tempt the player to challenge the cliffs or canyons on her tee shots on 4, 6, 7, 14, or 17?

What if there were more options and strategies off the tee?  Wider fairways pressed against the canyon edges might accomplish this on some of the holes.

What if there was at least 1 short par 4?  Perhaps 2 would make for an excellent potentially drivable par 4 if it was slightly altered and in the 300-310 range.

What if there were more central hazards?  Perhaps the 6th and 9th holes would be more interesting with something to challenge the second shot.   

My biggest general complaint about the South is that Rees built greens with dramatic ridges and tiers, but there is very little internal contour.  As a result, most putts are somewhat boring unless you have to deal with one of the dramatic ridges.

I agree with the sentiment on here that Torrey's potential exceeds the quality of the final product, which is disappointing.  However, this should not skew our evaluation of a great course.  Torrey is by no means an average golf course.  We shouldn't call it a 3 because it is a Doak 7-8 course built on a 9-10 site.

[Richard Choi]

Anthony, even you admit that the course does not take advantage of its outstanding location/land. Just by that fact alone, it cannot rate higher than Doak 6 since the criteria for 6 is "A very good course, definitely worth a game, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see. It shouldn't disappoint you."

The course may be very good, but there are many many disappointments.

[Tim Pitner]

We shouldn't call it a 3 because it is a Doak 7-8 course built on a 9-10 site.

No, but we should call it a 6 because that's probably an accurate rating.  I can see 7, when being charitable; I really can't see 8.  

[Gib_Papazian]

Having played the South numerous times in both its incarnations, it is obvious that Rees gave the USGA what they wanted - a straightforward test of golf with no tricks, quirks or unusual intellectual content. Dullards have an aversion to eccentric strategies, which explains the unbridled gushing from the media about Torrey South - and Harding Park for that matter - as if their status as "public courses" exempts them from critical evaluation.

We can all bemoan the lost opportunities at Torrey South mishandled by Rees Jones, but though his remodeling effort was not particularly noteworthy, it was also not particularly ham-handed either. My sense is that the golf course could be vastly improved with the addition of some Barona-esque bunkering, particularly on the par-5's, which as a group are an unnecessary yawn.

When I was a young kid, I attended the Billy Casper Golf Camp every year in San Diego and (no surprise) developed some very strong opinions about golf design in general and Torrey in particular. I was in the minority amongst my peers, but I was certain the North Course was a far better and more interesting layout than the South. My opinion has not changed in the ensuing years. At the time, both were in marginal condition at best, unlike now, where the South Course seems to get the lion's share of the maintenance attention.

Since someone mentioned Barona, I think it would be a wonderful demonstration of our collective wisdom here if someone could convince the puppet-masters who preside over Torrey Pines to assign Todd Eckenrode the task of remodeling the North Course; the argument being that there is little sense in making the same mistake twice - juxtaposing the sex appeal and strategic content of Todd's work vs. the staid, boilerplate somnambulist architecture of the national brand next door.

From what I understand, The Links at Terranea - despite being a par-3 course on the cliffs of Palos Verdes - compares favorably to Trump National a short distance down the road. While that may be an argument for a different thread, there is no doubt Eckenrode would put in twice the effort and creative elbow grease - if nothing else to show the world that there is more to life than repetitious, prosaic architecture.  



  



  

[Peter Ferlicca]

I too have played Torrey South many times while I was going to school in San Diego.  The course is in an absolutely fantastic setting and makes for a very enjoyable 4 hours (Usually 5 1/2 hrs with how hard it plays).  Like everyone has said the property could have produced a MUCH BETTER golf course.  There are too many dead straight golf holes in my opinion that ask for a straight drive and straight approach shot.  It is not a course that you try to hit draws or cuts on.  Number 1 is a good stern opeing hole that wakes you up right out of the gate.  2 is straight and plain.  3 and 4 are excellent holes.  5 is almost exactly like 2 but longer.  6 is a good long par 5 but if the green was next to the caynon would be better, same could be said for 7.  8 is a plain uphill par 3.  9 and 10 are about as straight and basic as they come.  11 is a good hard par 3 with a interesting green.  12 and 13 are the best holes on the property IMO.  14 would be better as a short 4.  15 is a good hard hole through the trees.  16 is a REALLY HARD par 3 when played from the backs at 230 yards into the wind.  17 is an ok hole that would be better hugging the canyon.  18 is like any hole you would find on a municipal, nothing to ride home about.  Overall the course is a Doak 6 IMO.  

[Gib_Papazian]

So, what rating do you give the North?

[Sean Leary]

It seems like the course would be visually better if they just cut down any trees that border the canyons..... Wonder if they can't because of the environmental issues...

[Kalen Braley]

While I haven't played Torrey, I have walked it.

For me its biggest drawback seemed to be just long hole after long hole after long hole.  Almost all of them dead straight, almost all of them hit it here or else.  There just seemed to be very little variety or otherwise to keep the interest other than the very nice views.

$185 to play it for non-resident?  There is no way in hell I would pay that, I would much rather do what I did last time....walk it for free and enjoy all the best parts...the views.

[Ryan Admussen]

While I haven't played Torrey, I have walked it.

For me its biggest drawback seemed to be just long hole after long hole after long hole.  Almost all of them dead straight, almost all of them hit it here or else.  There just seemed to be very little variety or otherwise to keep the interest other than the very nice views.

$185 to play it for non-resident?  There is no way in hell I would pay that, I would much rather do what I did last time....walk it for free and enjoy all the best parts...the views.

If you want to book in advance its $225 weekdays $269 weekends to walk with a pull cart, absolutely insane, even at half that price they would be pushing it in my opinion

[Kalen Braley]

While I haven't played Torrey, I have walked it.

For me its biggest drawback seemed to be just long hole after long hole after long hole.  Almost all of them dead straight, almost all of them hit it here or else.  There just seemed to be very little variety or otherwise to keep the interest other than the very nice views.

$185 to play it for non-resident?  There is no way in hell I would pay that, I would much rather do what I did last time....walk it for free and enjoy all the best parts...the views.

If you want to book in advance its $225 weekdays $269 weekends to walk with a pull cart, absolutely insane, even at half that price they would be pushing it in my opinion

I can safely say I'd never pay more than $75 to play either of those courses...

[Peter Ferlicca]

So, what rating do you give the North?

I would give the North at 5, BUT if this course is redesigned by Todd Eckernode or someone that could spice it up, I feel that it would rate ahead of the South and possibly end up being a Doak 7.  I know that it is very unlikely for a course to move up two spots so I will realistically say that it would be a Doak 6 if redesigned.  IMO the North sits on better property that has more rolling fairways throughout.  If you get the bunkers and greens redone it would be a great course, and would hopefully spread out the play amongst the two courses, as opposed to all the vacationers only wanting to play the South.  

On the North, 1 is a good uphill reachable par 5.  3 is a good par 3 over the canyon.  4 through 8 is the heart of the course IMO and provide the best golf holes probably on the whole property.  4 is a great hole that would be even better hugging the canyon on the left.  5 is an awesome downhill par 4, which has a very scenic approach shot.  6 is the famous downhill par 3 with the cypress tree gone now.  7 is the best hole at Torrey Pines, a very good uphill slight dogleg right with a sneaky quick green.  8 is another good par 4 that runs right along the canyon.  On the back side holes 11-13 once again all hug the canyon providing interesting holes.  And, though 14-16 are sort of straightforward holes, they all have movement in the fairway, which the South course has none of.  

All in all, if the North had a little work done to it, it is superior to the South course.

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