Starting Tues., 2/2 - Get To Know Mike Clayton

[Scott Warren]

An interview with Geoff Ogilvy in Golf International April/May 2009 contained a passage that I think belongs in this thread.

Geoff was asked how he got into golf architecture, and explains:

"When I was still an amateur, Mike Clayton invited me to play a practice round with him before the Australian Open. On the way around, I noticed how - between the inevitable expletives following his less than satisfactory shots - he would stop halfway to his ball and start yelling at a bunker. 'What are you doing there?' he'd shout, as if it was going to move. Then he'd hit a tree with a drive, but get angry at the tree rather than his shot. 'What's this f**king thing doing here?' he would ask 'This is f**king bullshit!'.

"All of which would get me thinking. And I quickly came to the conclusion that he was always right. I'd look at his abused trees and realise that the hole would be better if it wasn't there. Then you could see where you wanted to go. And that trend has continued to this day.

"The way I look at golf courses has everything to do with Mike and his continuing influence on my thinking. He has made me aware of what could be there rather than what is there at any given moment. Because of him I 'see' golf holes how they could be rather than how they are. In effect, he showed me what to look for."

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Mike,

I'm loving this "Get to know .." thread. Some great questions and even more interesting answers. Thanks for taking the time to write such long answers.

To play golf at the highest level and then go on to be a golf course designer is a dream come true for anyone interested in golf. It must give you a great sense of accomplishment, not to mention pleasure. You must sleep like a baby at night!!

Couldn't agree with you more regarding Portmarnock. I'm sure I saw you there at a few Irish Opens in the 80s. I must check my little autograph book and see if I got yours.

Dónal.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Mike,

I forgot to ask a question in my previous post.

In a previous discussion on Muirfield back in 2002 or 2003, Ronan Brannigan asked what the fuss was about Muirfield. This was your response:

"I played The open there in 1992 so maybe we saw the course at its best but it struck me that 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,and 18 were fantastic holes.
I am not trying to be smart here - it just struck me as a course made up of 3 terrific par fives requiring a deal of nerve and thought ,4 great par threes and a bunch of par fours that exhibited wonderful variety.
And there have been a seriously impressive group of winners there. Hagen,Cotton,Player,Nicklaus,Trevino,Watson,Faldo,Faldo and Els.
I doubt any course ever has done such a fine job of identifying the best players in the world"

Another course that generates a similar reaction with golfers is Portmarnock.  Some like it, others don't. Having played both courses, do you view Portmarnock in the same light as Muirfield? What did you like about Portmarnock?

Dónal.

[Andrew Bertram]

Mike


I have just returned home after a very enjoyable round at Vic with Adrian O'Donnell. Love the new work you have been doing there Having played a lot of golf there over the last 25 years it has only improved since you have been involved. A couple of quetions and comments:

The green side trap on 11 has blended into the hole nicely and looks very natural, what was your thought process in making the 3 smaller bunkers that where there into one?

On 13, I think the right side has improved the hole greatly, on the left are you putting in waste bunkers from about 100 out?

First look at 14, it is going to be a stunning hole. what was your inspiration in adding the front left bunker even though it is not in play? How much slope have you added from the front of the green?

I look forward to the Masters as I am of the view that the course will surprise a lot of players with the improvements you have made and it will recieve a lot of praise.

Your work at Peninsula, Vic and Kingston Heath has been widely recognised. Which other melbourne course would you like to work on and what would you focus on?

Is there any work you have done in the past that you would like to go back and do over again?

Thanks

Andrew

[Matthew Delahunty]

Mike,

It was well publicised on this site that you took a long time to get to Dornoch. I think you made it there last year.  What were your thoughts?

You've mentioned your favourite holes built.  What do you consider are your best? Most strategic? And which ones have been the most controversial?

You've been a consultant to many clubs.  Generally, are committees beginning to understand more about what makes a good golf course, or less?

[Brian Walshe]

Clayts,

You appear to have overlooked Kevin's question a bit earlier about whether you thought there is any strategy in par 3's.  I'd be interested to hear the answer, again.

Have you ever suggested a tree be planted on a golf course? 

Brian

[George Pazin]

Hi Mike -

Did you get to play any rounds with Seve?

How was the pressure at The Open different from the pressure at a normal Tour stop? Do you think the R&A puts as much emphasis on course setup as the USGA does for the US Open?

[Mike_Clayton]

RJ

It was the first time I played the 12th at Royal Melbourne - the par 5 where you used to have to decide whether to carry the heath and bracken in fornt of the green - or play safe to the right and pitch on. It was a confounding decision and one of the issues with the ball is that holes like 12 and the questions it posed are gone for good players.
It was April 1974 - coincidentally the same month The Masters was telecast into Australia. We saw those back nine water holes and bemoaned the fact we had none - aside from 16 at Commonwealth - and assumed our courses were inferior for the lack of water.
Of course it was the same time we were dismissing Peter Thomson's swing as old-fashioned and copying Nicklaus,Miller and Weiskopf.

CHRIS,
Which of your redesigns are you most proud of?
Healesville is a good one I think.It showed golfers in Melbourne it was possible to do good holes in clay on hilly land.Because all of the best courses in Melbourne are relatively flat and all of the best bunkers are in sand golfers made the assumption hilly courses on heavy soil were not any good - and it wasn't possible to build beautiful bunkers in clay.Michael Cocking showed them that it was more than possible.
Do you think the golfing public identify you more as a former pro or as a course designer/columnist?
I'm not sure - you may have a better idea than I do! It depends when they got interested in golf I suppose and what part of my career they were exposed to. And golf pros are rarely 'former pros' - so many are doing what I am and competing on the Senior Tour.
It is only a dozen weeks a year but it is easily enough to keep interested in working at it.
If you didn't pursue a career in golf, what would you have done instead?
I have no idea.I loved it from the day I started and I think I would have found my way to some part of the game.If I knew what I was going to finish up doing - designing - I would have gone to work at a club and learned the greenkeeping part of the business.
How many majors will Geoff Ogilvy win before he's done?
My guess is that he will win more than one - three of four maybe - but you need the luck as well as the skill.He showed both at Winged Foot. He is one of the few with the confidence do do it and I think we expects to.
To win The Open he needs to get the ball down a bit - or get a week were the wind is down.

DAVE.
THere are some pretty amazing stories abot Mac O'Grady's talent and approach to the game  (carrying a couple of left handed club in his bags at tournaments etc).  Any cool stories? 

Royal Perth - last years Australian Senior Open - on the range after one of the rounds he is hitting and teaching some of the pros and an old guy - 90 years old - was watching for an hour or so and said that 'I hear you can hit left handed'
Mac tood out a wooden driver, asked what shot he wanted - a high draw, low fade - and turned the club upside down, swung it exactly the same as his right handed swing and ripped a high draw 270 yards.
The old member was stunned  - ' that was the most amazing think I have seen in my whole life'
He may be the most talented player ever to pick up a club.

DONAL
Another course that generates a similar reaction with golfers is Portmarnock.  Some like it, others don't. Having played both courses, do you view Portmarnock in the same light as Muirfield? What did you like about Portmarnock?

I am not sure how anybody could not like Portmarnock.It was a great tournament venue and there were some fantastic holes.My favourutes were 8,12,14,15 and 18 - the obvious ones and the supporting cast of holes are really good- not as good as Muirfield but fun to play and you had to hit shots all the way around. I played the Open there in 1987 and played with Faldo in the last round.Langer put on a clinic that week - he used a wooden driver the first two days and a metal one on the weekend (either that or the other way around) and Faldo was struggling still with the new swing.
If anybody had told me he would win The Open three weeks lated I would have laughted. Langer peaked early but he tore the place apart that week with brilliant golf.

[Mike_Clayton]

ANDREW.
I have just returned home after a very enjoyable round at Vic with Adrian O'Donnell. Love the new work you have been doing there Having played a lot of golf there over the last 25 years it has only improved since you have been involved. A couple of quetions and comments:
Not everyone agrees but it is amazing how much work they have done there since 1995.If you could put it back exactly the way it was it would shock the members.You couldn't see the right half of the 11th fairway from the tee for exapmple.

The green side trap on 11 has blended into the hole nicely and looks very natural, what was your thought process in making the 3 smaller bunkers that where there into one?
Really to continue to restore the drama and scale of the original work there in the late nineteen -twenties.It looks better than it did I think but it doesn't really change the way the hole plays.

On 13, I think the right side has improved the hole greatly, on the left are you putting in waste bunkers from about 100 out?
We took bracken from there and chunked it into the face of the new bunker on the right - and the waste sort of evolved as a result of that.It wasn't really that concious a thing.

First look at 14, it is going to be a stunning hole. what was your inspiration in adding the front left bunker even though it is not in play? How much slope have you added from the front of the green?
The restoration of the bunkers coming back to the 15th tee at Kingston Heath was in our minds - as well as those big old bunkers like 8 at St Georges Hill. The hole was always a good one but the ground and the hazards between tee and green had been hacked at for years but everybody including us. The original green was ringed by a horseshoe of bunkers and the old photos look brilliant.
I assume that was changed years ago because there was no way for the poorer players to get on the green.

I look forward to the Masters as I am of the view that the course will surprise a lot of players with the improvements you have made and it will recieve a lot of praise.
It will be a good event - and 10 will be much better with the cross-over tee.They are playing of the par 3 tee they used for the 2002 Open and driving across the 1st fairway.It takes a poor tee shot and make it a beauty.

Your work at Peninsula, Vic and Kingston Heath has been widely recognised. Which other melbourne course would you like to work on and what would you focus on?
We have done a plan for Commonwealth and the focus there is on solving the boundary issue at 10 which leads to the 7th and the issues at the southern end of the course.It used to be a beautiful part of the course and needs to be again.
I think your club at Yarra Yarra has some fascinating problems for deal with because of the boundaries - and Alex Russell's original work there needs to be a really important guide there I think.

Is there any work you have done in the past that you would like to go back and do over again?
You always wonder what you could have done differently.
We recently went back to Karrinyup and redid our fairway bunker arrangement at 14 and did a much better job second time around.
We also redid the controversial 18th green. I liked it but it was on the edge and the members had reason to dislike it.It was close to being fantastic - but the new one is more popular with the members.
I wonder if we would do 13 North and 8 South at Peninsula exactly the same - but I like their demands. it is a probem doing holes like that  - short fours and par 5s - and building greens for good players that are interesting and demanding and then having shorter hitters playing from way back.
The classic example of that in Melbourne is the 3rd green at Woodlands.It is the most difficult shot from 100 yards in Melbourne and it is a great shot to play - but how anybody plays to it from 150 yards with a 5 iron is a mystery. But there is no way you would change it.

[Mike_Clayton]

MATTHEW.

Mike,

It was well publicised on this site that you took a long time to get to Dornoch. I think you made it there last year.  What were your thoughts?

I played there with John Huggan and we had a fantastic day. It is always hard to judge a course like that when you see it once and in one wind.The wind was down and off the left going out that day.
Obviously it is an awesome place - and the shots you have to hit are demanding and fun - and that is a repeating theme of all the best courses. I will do back again this summer and hope the wind is coming the other way.
You've mentioned your favourite holes built.  What do you consider are your best? Most strategic? And which ones have been the most controversial?

The uphill 280 yard par 4 13th at Portsea is a really good one because like 4 at Barnbougle it is dangerous and it demands you make a decioion of line, club and shot. You can drive it on but a miss in the wrong place is horrible. It is an sure 4 and a 2 out of 4 chance for 3 if you lay -up but it is so tempting to go with the driver. Good players can play 480 yard holes all ay with drives and five irons but these are the ones that confuse them.
The most controversial amongst certain groups of members are the ones were we have taken out trees. The 7th at Peninsula was a 2 iron and a wedge dogelg right - or a driver blasted over a forest to an unseen target. We removed 50 trees, build a sandywaste'bunker and gave players a view of the green.It is a much better hole but amongst so many members at any club the focus is on the trees.
I have written already about 18 at Karrinyup as well as the 8th green at Peninsula.
The new holes at Metropolitan - 12,13, and 14 - have been the sunjest of much discussion. I think 12 and 14 are much more interesting to play but to appreciate them you have to have some awareness of the questions they are asking.


You've been a consultant to many clubs.  Generally, are committees beginning to understand more about what makes a good golf course, or less?
At the clubs we work with there is a pretty good understanding - it takes a deal of discussion at times and we try to get people to read the best books on architeture. They help because it seems so many over the years have been saying the same things - especially about trees and their role.
Then you speak to people generally about courses and holes and realize that so many have very little idea of what works and whar doesn't.

BRIAN.

You appear to have overlooked Kevin's question a bit earlier about whether you thought there is any strategy in par 3's.  I'd be interested to hear the answer, again.
Let me get back to that one!!
Par threes are just holes that ask for a shot and keep the routing going by getting architects out of tricky corners!
Is there a strategy at 11 at Yarra - or just a demand for a high fade and a choice of playing at the pin or away from the pin? If that is strategy then par 3s have strategy.
The 9th at Peninsula asks for a high fade - but there is no strategy there - you just have to hit the shot and you either miss the green or hit the green. When 16 at Cypress Point is into a gale there is strategy - or choice of line and club - but its a par four in those conditions.


Have you ever suggested a tree be planted on a golf course? 
The one thing that constantly amazes me is how much criticism we get for taking trees out - which is fine and I can defend the reasons - but those who are critical never seem to see where we have planted trees. We have planted a lot more trees at Peninsula that we have removed and my guess is that the same applies at Victoria.
We try to make sure we plant the right trees in the right places - as opposed to the wrong trees in the wrong places.



 
 
 

[Mike_Clayton]

GEORGE,

Did you get to play any rounds with Seve?
I played with Seve quite a few times - maybe a dozen rounds.
He remains my favourite player to watch play - If Tiger was on the 1st tee and Seve was on the 10th tee there is no question who I would go to watch.

How was the pressure at The Open different from the pressure at a normal Tour stop? Do you think the R&A puts as much emphasis on course setup as the USGA does for the US Open?
It was different because it was so much bigger and there were so many players who were so much better than I was. The courses were difficult and you had to obviuosly hit a lot of high class shots. Guys who won regular tour events where the mental and physical demands were less had much less of a chance at The Open - but the history of the Championship is littered with players like Simon Owen - 1978 St Andrews - (1 ahead of Nicklaus with 3 to play) who were talented and who overcame the situation and played the tournament of their lives.
There is no way they - the R and A  put the emphasis on precisely setting up the course the way the USGA do.
Can you imagine is -19 won a US Open as it did at St Andrews in 1990?
They have had a few blackouts - Turnberry 1986,Carnoustie 1999 - but generally they do it very well. There seems to be much less emphasis on 'fairness' and equity of punishment'.
I think they understand that dealing with the inequity of punishment is a part of the mental challenge of the game. The best players still, generally, win The Open - and with wood and balata they always won The Open.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Mike, thanks for participating.

Do your friends still give you a hard time about "the putt" we've all seen? 

Do you prefer bunkers where the grass is cut short all the way to the bunker edges?

What do you think about the evolution of the Road Hole (bunker changes, lengthening, fairway narrowing) over the years?

Any thoughts about the round you played a few years ago, I think with Geoff Ogilvy, using old-style equipment...it seemed that GO adapted quickly...how well do you think the "average" touring professional would fare (relative to their game with their normal equipment) with a similar old-style equipment setup?

Will you spend any/much time in the US this year?

Thanks.

[Jason Topp]

The best players still, generally, win The Open - and with wood and balata they always won The Open.

Mike:

I recall reading somewhere that a lot of players switched to two piece balls like Top Flights or Pinnacles at the Open.  True or false?

[Mike_Clayton]

KEVIN

Do your friends still give you a hard time about "the putt" we've all seen? 

Not really - it was a long time ago now! -  but occasionally I meet someone who says - 'you're the guy who did that putt!'

Do you prefer bunkers where the grass is cut short all the way to the bunker edges?
Of course - it almost always is at our courses and it has always been the way on the sandbelt.
It makes sense for the balls to run freely into the bunkers - and to reward the player who has driven close to the edge.Punishing him makes no sense at all to me. It is bizarre that all the bunkers are in the rough in America.That is a generalisation I know but generally it is the way.

What do you think about the evolution of the Road Hole (bunker changes, lengthening, fairway narrowing) over the years?

The fairway looked crazy on the right at the last Open - all in response to the ball. I saw a picture of the new tee last week and it looked like the line was reasonable. The bunker seems to have changed a lot - it looked much different when Doug Sanders played that great shot in the 1970 Open. I think it would be better if there was less rough down the left and players were encouraged to play further from the ideal line. The shot Seve hit from over there in 1984 was a brilliant shot.

Any thoughts about the round you played a few years ago, I think with Geoff Ogilvy, using old-style equipment...it seemed that GO adapted quickly...how well do you think the "average" touring professional would fare (relative to their game with their normal equipment) with a similar old-style equipment setup?
He was even more impressive a year later when we played with hickory - he was hitting a 1925 2 wood with a really good shaft and he took a few shots to get the feel and he hardly missed a shot.He has a great feel for hitting other clubs - old or new.
Hitting the wooden driver out of the sweet spot and getting a consistent flight takes real skill and he is really good at it. All the great players were but now driving is simple with the new clubs and balls.
I think the average pro these days would adapt but they would not drive anywhere near as far. Cut scores would go up as a consequence and maybe the winning scores a little bit.Tiger would be a better player with a wooden driver I think.Maybe not but he would be forced to swing more like he does with the irons.

Will you spend any/much time in the US this year?

Not sure - I will be in Europe for a couple of months and will have a week or two spare. I need to make the effort and the world is awfully small these days. I flew four times to Europe last year and was amazed how little time it takes to go so far.

JASON.
I recall reading somewhere that a lot of players switched to two piece balls like Top Flights or Pinnacles at the Open.  True or false?

False. Some used to play them into the wind - but they soon changed that rule. The big thing for the ball companies was the ball count and some guys would tee off with a Wilson - or some ball with small usage - so they (the ball company) would get numbers in the count. The players would get to the 2nd tee and play the rest of the tournament with a Titleist.
Maybe they got paid a couple of hundred pounds which for some was a lot of money in the 1970s and 1980s.

[Michael Taylor]

KEVIN

Do your friends still give you a hard time about "the putt" we've all seen? 

Not really - it was a long time ago now! -  but occasionally I meet someone who says - 'you're the guy who did that putt!'

Will you spend any/much time in the US this year?

Not sure - I will be in Europe for a couple of months and will have a week or two spare. I need to make the effort and the world is awfully small these days. I flew four times to Europe last year and was amazed how little time it takes to go so far.

Mike,

What exactly is 'the putt'??

And do you fly Buisness or Economy? 

[Mike_Clayton]

Mike,

just google 'stupid golfer' - the putt is there.You were not old enough to see it!

I travel economy - its not that hard and I would rather have the six thousand dollars extra it costs in business (Melb to London) in my pocket.

[Brian Walshe]

Clayts,

Thank you for your thoughts on par 3's and strategy.  Be interesting to see if people share your views    It's also nice to have you respect for trees on the public record.  Perhaps now we should demand your nickname be changed from "Chainsaw" to "the Aborist".

You have gained a fantastic name in Australia through your renovation work on existing courses.  Whilst the changes to the more well known courses on the Sandbelt and the likes of the Lakes have grabbed plenty of attention, your work on the next tier or two of courses, places like Rosanna, has also been outstanding as well.  This to me raises the question of why you have been successful with renovations where others have failed dismally.  What is so different in your approach to a renovation that has made such a difference to the end results?

[Mark Chaplin]

Mike - I've visited Metropolitan a couple of times using the reciprocal with Royal Cinque Ports. I was amazed at the condition of the course and my only comparison was Valderama, a course getting a fraction of the play compared to that of Metro with it's 2000'ish members. I'm interested to know how conditions have held out with the drought?

[Michael Taylor]

Mike,

just google 'stupid golfer' - the putt is there.You were not old enough to see it!

I travel economy - its not that hard and I would rather have the six thousand dollars extra it costs in business (Melb to London) in my pocket.

I googled that and this is what I came up with as the 1st hyperlink. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xA5cjdLAm_g

Is that you?

Pup

 

[Emil Weber]

Par threes are just holes that ask for a shot and keep the routing going by getting architects out of tricky corners!
Is there a strategy at 11 at Yarra - or just a demand for a high fade and a choice of playing at the pin or away from the pin? If that is strategy then par 3s have strategy.
The 9th at Peninsula asks for a high fade - but there is no strategy there - you just have to hit the shot and you either miss the green or hit the green. When 16 at Cypress Point is into a gale there is strategy - or choice of line and club - but its a par four in those conditions.

Mike,

Take two of Barnbougle's par 3s - 5 and 16 - don't you think there's strategy to these holes? Both of them can be carried directly or you can bounce it in from the left.

And thanks for participating, it's been interesting to read!

[Mike_Clayton]

BRIAN

You have gained a fantastic name in Australia through your renovation work on existing courses.  Whilst the changes to the more well known courses on the Sandbelt and the likes of the Lakes have grabbed plenty of attention, your work on the next tier or two of courses, places like Rosanna, has also been outstanding as well.  This to me raises the question of why you have been successful with renovations where others have failed dismally.  What is so different in your approach to a renovation that has made such a difference to the end results?

Rosanna is a pretty good course now.It was blighted with a number of Vern Morcom's awful dogleg holes and we have managed to rearrange those.I think 9 went from being one of the worst holes in Melbourne to the best hole on the course - but it took the removal of 60 big trees to do it and for those who didn't like what we were doing they had a free hit with the 'chainsaw' reputation.
I'm not sure why we have been more successful - your words - that others. We care about what we do and we really enjoy improving the golf.
I don't see what we do in terms of concept as being that difficult - but I thing the quality oif our work is pretty high.Jason McCarthy is a fantastic shaper. There was a really good budget at Healesville - and that showed what was possible in Melbourne on the heavy ground.

MARK

I've visited Metropolitan a couple of times using the reciprocal with Royal Cinque Ports. I was amazed at the condition of the course and my only comparison was Valderama, a course getting a fraction of the play compared to that of Metro with it's 2000'ish members. I'm interested to know how conditions have held out with the drought?

The course is perfect still - the drought has had no effect - in fact the drought has been going since 1997 so the course is used to the weather.The dam was enlarged so there is more water now. The club have a new green keeper and he is making good progress with the health of the forests.I expect that part of the golf course will see significant improvements over the next decade.

MIKE.

That will be me - I assume. I didn't bother watching. White shirt right??

EMIL.

That is true about those two holes - is that strategy? or just hitting the shots the holes asks for. If it is strategy - then yes there is strategy on par threes.

[Jason McNamara]

Mike -

Do I remember correctly that you were going to do some work for R. Adelaide?  If I do have that right, how did it turn out?

[Jay Flemma]

Hey Mike, did you forget about me?  Or did my brain stroke off and miss seeing your response?

[Chris Kane]

That will be me - I assume. I didn't bother watching. White shirt right??

No white shirt - but if it was you, its no wonder you lost your card!!

[Mike_Clayton]

Jason

We did a long term plan for Royal Adelaide - and we have redone the 17th hole.It should be open soon.
I think it wiill turn out well - its a double fairway hole with a big bunker in the middle - and it will be a par four now.

Jay,
I did write a response - and then lost yours as well as the others it was coupled with.I thought I had redone it.
I will get to it now.

Chris,

I did miss the cut that week by a shot.