"We have to have water on the 18th"

[Ally Mcintosh]

Following on from the Ken Brown / new 18th at Wentworth West thread...

How many architects have had this request from one or more Clients?... and how hard have they fought to keep the idea if you've been against it?

I've seen this happen on a few occasions with Clients that believe water is the main form of drama... in addition to providing a better view from the clubhouse window...

[Gary Slatter]

Water on the 18th can lead to good swings in scoring and allow dramatic final holes.  TPC, Doral, Charlotte, most EPGA events, etc.
I love a short par five or long par four 18th with water on one side and no strokes. 
Hamilton GC has a great long par four 18th with a creek and it's the 18th HDCP.   Or was when I last played there.  Perfect finish(er).
The worse case is Torrey Pines' pond on 18.  Although it adds to that hole and fits, it is ugly.

Water on the 18th makes non-links courses more exciting IMHO.  No fountains  or ball scoops though.

[Anthony Gray]

  Cruden Bay has water on 18


   Anthony

[Tom_Doak]

I've never had a client insist on that.  I've done a few finishing holes with water in play, but they were all my idea.

At Stonewall [the original course], one of the founders thought the 18th green should finish on the water ... it took me several weeks to get that idea out of my brain and find the right location for the green.

[jim_lewis]

one of my pet peeves in golf course architecture. I call it the "Pebble Beach syndrome".  Talk about lack of imagination. Since I have no way of knowing whether it is the architect's idea or the owner, I generally assume the owner wants the dramatic look. Personally, I admire the owners/architects who resist the temptation to see how many holes they can locate adjacent to or around water, especially the 18th. Route the course in the manner that fits the land best. If that includes bringing water into play, fine, but don't let the water drive the routing. If you want the clubhouse to overlook a hole with water, move the clubhouse. Don't create the water hole to fit the location of the clubhouse. But, don't get me started!

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think for commercial modern golf courses its a good thing to have the 18th green set with the clubhouse overlooking and with water involved. The minimaist or psuedo-links courses obviously not but most of the new stuff is not that. People like water, it helps sale.
The 18th at Bay Hill has almost become a template and I struggle to think of any Nicklaus courses that dont have a 460 yard 18th with water.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I'm not saying it's always a bad thing.... far from it...

However, it has to fit... More often than not, owners want clubhouses positioned at an elevation... man-made ponds and high points don't go together...

I know of at least one case where the Client demanded both, despite being warned against the lake option by the architect...

[Adrian_Stiff]

Ally - Yes it has to fit and yes it looks **** when it does not. The one I dont like is on the 18th at Crans, I think the lining is turquoise blue, so you see this yucky blue edge. Clubhouse to 18th green views need to be intimate and connect the viewer to the drama, if water is not the solution, a dramatic contoured green can work. You need something to spark a £1 wager between friends on the outcome whilst enjoying your beer.

[Richard_Mandell]

My China client has made it very clear he wants lots of water.  I'll oblige.  But I will make sure that playability isn't compromised and convince him that what I show him as "lots of water" is as much as possible, even if it isn't. 

[Tom_Doak]

Good luck with that, Richard.

I've heard a couple of stories of Chinese clients going out and digging bunkers or even ponds where they wanted one, if they felt like the architect wasn't listening.  Luckily, the two projects I'm looking at are along a river and along the sea, so we can bring a lot of water in play without digging ponds.

[Richard Choi]

With Chinese clients, I would expect them to be very high on water features. You have to remember they are very high on "balance" concepts like Feng Shui. Which is why a pond is a must on almost any formal garden (giant rocks as well) which is probably how they view golf courses.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I can't ever recall being told to specifically put water on the 18th hole.  I have had routings affected by a clients desire to have a good view of the 18th for "when they play tournaments" there, avoiding the delicate question of exactly which tournament they hope to secure (We're nowhere near Tuscon, AZ, but I think they need a new location for the Tuscon Open!)

For that matter, most of my heavily watered courses are because we needed to connect lakes to provide drainage outlets on flat sites.  I would think you could appeal to their fiscal conservatism, showing the cost of building and the evaporation losses, etc.  When put in terms of gallons a day per acre, most people get quite alarmed.

Just as someone opined about repeating the early American mistakes of large clubhouses over there, I guess they seem doomed in China to repeat some of our later mistakes, too! (i.e., 1950's lake building era, just because we could)

[Dan Herrmann]

I don't know if this is common, but every Pete Dye course I've played has water on the 18th.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Yeah, Pete likes his cape hole 18th.  As one prominent golfer said about his TPC greens that had to be rebuilt "He put a mound in the mid front of the first hole and liked it so well, he did it 17 more times!"

The same applies to the PD finish sequence of 5-3-4 with  Cape Hole finish.

[Kalen Braley]

The 18th at his course at Promontory in Park City doesn't..well mostly.  There is a pond just to the right of the tee box, but is a simple carry, (the womens tee has no carry)

[Matthew Petersen]

Yeah, Pete likes his cape hole 18th.  As one prominent golfer said about his TPC greens that had to be rebuilt "He put a mound in the mid front of the first hole and liked it so well, he did it 17 more times!"

The same applies to the PD finish sequence of 5-3-4 with  Cape Hole finish.

Not at all. ASU Karsten is a 3-5-4 finish. With a cape hole. 

[Scott Macpherson]

hi,

Our new course (Colt course, at Close House) we are currently building in Newcastle, UK will have water in front of and around the right side of the green. It was an old pond that it is believed provided ice to the old mansion house in the 1800's. It is nice to bring old features like this back into play, and to celebrate some history of the property. The client has alway been very supportive of the idea form day one, as it is believed that on this parkland course the 18th hole (with water) will bring great drama to the finishing hole. The hole will be a Par 4 about 430 yards long, and the best line into the green will be from the right side of the fairway which is bordered by an old 'Ha-Ha' wall. Those with weak bladders may choose to forego this adventure.....

scott

[Tim Gavrich]

It's always thrilling when big numbers are possible on a finishing hole for match play's sake.  It's easier to make such a hole by having water near the green and/or off the tee than to do it with clever bunkering or a tough green without going overboard.  I'm always fond of watery finishing holes, especially par 5s, for this reason.

[Richard Phinney]

Its something Jean Van de welde is going to insist on in his new architecture practice.