Robert Trent Jones, Sr.

[Forrest Richardson]

I was asked today what the hallmarks were of Mr. Jones — in terms of his course designs. I thought of a few, but wondered how this questions would be answered by the learned contributors to this site.

What positives would you cite about Trent's work — not specific examples — but general design traits which have stood the test of time.

[Bob_Huntley]

Forrest,

i have thought about this long an hard and find that RTJ Snr., desired that his courses demanded a macho response to his designs.

I am familiar with Spyglass having played it since it opened, but one of my favorites of his, is Pauma Valley. Set in an idyllic valley with orange blossoms abounding, it was just one helluva test. Many thought it punitive, but it rewarded good shot making and there was nothing there that was gimmicky.

A lot of people deride Mauna Kea with its elevated greens, but apart from No. 10( an awful hole) the rest of the course is a delight. Of course I am biased, I won a tournament there with Chi Chi Rodriguez almost forty years ago. Big George Bayer, in front of us had a tough time breaking 80.

[Forrest Richardson]

Thanks, Bob. The psychological aspect of paying respect to his designs is a good thought on his work. I will admit that I can recall very little of his work that ever looked easy to negotiate, regardless of whether it was in reality.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Snake Oil for the Masses.

I don't say this being that I want to establish an even weaker footing with the Jones family, but personally, I think he is over-rated.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Trent Jones Snr did very little design work in the UK.  Moor Allerton north of Leeds and the three courses at Celtic Manor (with his son) come to mind, but there's also a fascinating course near Heathrow Airport, Stockley Park.  I believe it was created on waste land, so RTJ had more or less a blank canvas on which to work.  Whatever your level of golf (and as a pay-and-play course it's open to all) you are made to think on every shot.  It's strategic, not penal, and it's memorable - I've played it only twice, yet I can recall each hole vividly.  With clever routing and plenty of screening there are footpaths, cycle ways and open spaces for workers in the local offices and factories to get some fresh air at lunchtime in safety and the whole impression is of a very intelligent use of a plot of land.  It wouldn't surprise me if it also made a valuable contribution to the local natural history.  It's not pretty - it's surrounded by factories, offices and housing - but you hardly notice the surroundings when you must give thought to every single shot.

[Brad Klein]

Forrest, I'll email you a lengthy obit I wrote in June 2000 covering Trent's legacy.

Meanwhile, I'd summarize his design approach as:

-big, long tees; lined up with the center of the fairway

-big, elevated greens with level areas segmented by slopes (interior greens w/i greens)

-fairway bunkers at landing point, often on the inside of the dogleg

-greenside bunker at 4 p.m. and 7 p.m.

-routing plans with holes perpindicular to the contour lines

Unfortunately, his own design approach is evident in relatively few courses, and certainly by the 1960s he was tossing aside golf courses left and right with abandon, which led to a loss of distinctiveness. There is still a certain elegance in his Dunes Club (SC), Peachtree (GA), Pauma Valley (CA), Boyne-Heather (MI). But there is way too much indifferent stuff. My bet is 20 years from now historians will look at Trent's work and wonder what the fuss was all about. In restrospect, Trent's greatest innovation was not design but marketing, salesmanship and business practice.

In the hands of his longtime associate, Roger Rulewich, the classic Trent style ended up with jagged little bunker pieces, jammed up fairway landing areas and shriveled down greens inside greens, culminating (!)in the 1980s redo of Aronimink and the RTJ Trail in Ala.

[Will E]

Ron-
The RTJ Sr. courses I've played have hourglass shaped fairways with bunkers on both sides. Should he be credited with the introduction of branding to architecture? Also, will he be remembered as the first Open Dr.? Interesting that Brad noted that the jagged bunkering all over his new courses (losing shape at Flamingo Island) are Rulewich trademarks. From my limited experience I define his hallmarks as BIG, tough courses. Wish more of his work was reflective of the first six holes at Spyglass.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I would have to say the extended tee has survived, albeit in many modified forms.

I would also say the basic "scale" of his golf courses have served as a prototype for most modern designs.  His were clearly larger in scale than the courses built before WWII, perhaps because of the first large scale use of bulldozers, and for the most part, we haven't gone back.

Lastly, I would tend to credit him with the elevated green concept, where almost all greens are typically 3-4 feet above the fairway, and that general trend held (IMHO) until the early 90's.

Also, the ideas of strictly placed bunkers was probably his.  Even Dick Wilson had a few random bunkers in the designs I have played, but the RTJ bunkers were all "strictly business", and intended for the best players only.  That general trend held for a long time, and still probably prevails.  No fore bunkers for RTJ that I have seen,,,,,

I have fond memories of the times I was able to talk to RTJ at ASGCA meetings!

[Jimmy Muratt]

Robert Trent Jones Golf Club in Virginia is one of his better designs and one of the last that he did.  It is set on Lake Manassas and is the home site for the President's Cup.  My favrorite holes on the course are:

#9  a downhill par 3 of about 200 yards that backs to lake Manassas.  A beautiful hole with a great two tiered green, some great pin placements on this green.

#11  this is definitely one of the best par 3's that RTJ ever designed.  The hole is about 190 yards and you tee off from one high point to another over part of the lake to the green which is set on an small peninsula jetting out into the water.  In recent years they have taken down many trees behind the green as well which really open up the view of the lake over the back of the green and also make the wind more of a factor.  The green is bisected in the middle by a ridge that almost makes the green act as two separate greens.

One thing that I've noticed is that RTJ seems to have weak short par 4's or none at all on many of his courses.  

[Mark_Fine]

Forrest,
I've always described RTJ Sr. courses as "great tests of golf" but not necessarily great golf courses.  Few of his designs really inspire me.  They are generally very hard and require all the shots but they lack interest and ongoing appeal.  Formulaic may be too strong a word but in a sense, many of his designs play very similar.  
Mark

[A_Clay_Man]

Forrest- I can remember(sort of) my first learning (mostly thru osmosis) about architects just by knowing ahead of play, who the designer was. Tags I recall, either hearing or formulating on my own, about RTJ where that he protected par or rather he designed with the intent to make Par a very good score with bogie more likely. Also, the 4 and 7 o'clock greenside bunkers were probably the first repetitious features I ever saw. What's funny is one of the only other apparent repeater's (that Ive noticed) happen to be his offspring.

Was he the father of the heroic design or just it's johnny appleseed?

[A.G._Crockett]

Should blind landing areas on dogleg par 4's be added to the list?

[Forrest Richardson]

If you consider that a positive trait of his designs, they by all means.

Thanks for all of the input. I have read some material recently. But this type of feedback is very enlightening.

[BCrosby]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned RTJ's use of water. He wrapped fairways around it, set it in front of greens and placed it in roughs to collect errant shots.

Water played a much more prominent role in his designs than those of his Golden Age predecessors.

I have always understood Bobby Jones' comment, which went something like:

 "Most hazards are like a car wreck. You can usually walk away from them. With luck you can even recover. Water hazards, however, are like a plane wreck. No body ever walks away away from one. There is no recovery."

as a not so subtle dig at the abundant use of water hazards by the RTJ/heroic school in the 50's and 60's.

Bob

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Adam, All one has to do is read MacKenzie in Golf Architecture or Wethered & Simpson's Architectural Side of Golf to see that RTJ's claimed Heroic school was founded way before he became famous.

[Michael Dugger]

"hard par, easy bogey"

seems this fits in any era

[Bill Gayne]

Another observation on RTJ courses that I've played that has not been mentioned.

There is nothing hidden in the design. The course generally dictates the shot to be hit. There is enjoyment in being required to hit a specific type of shot and then successfully executing the shot. This is okay by me as long as that I'm not hitting the same shot repeatedly.

I've wondered how much Rees had of his Father's DNA when it came to design. Rees appears to have received his Father's DNA for business development.

[JerryZuckerman]

Mr. Dugger please the list of Robert Trent Jones Sr. designed courses that you have played.

[Michael Dugger]

Zuckerman...please list all of the RT Jones courses that YOU have played.

Oh, and blow me!

[Carlyle Rood]

Robert Trent Jones designed the University of Georgia Golf Course for $1.  I think that suggests something about his legacy.

Carlyle

[Brad Klein]

Mr. Rood, if we were to judge all people by a single act of generosity (no doubt that's what the UG course was, as you suggest) then all of us would be angels. I doubt that's the best way to judge someone who worked in the public eye for 60 years and whose legacy is far more complicated than that.

[Rick_Noyes]

Seems I remember reading someething about RTJ sr being responsible for the aerial game that you see today.  Wasn't it Sarazen that started using a wedge to fly shots in rather than the run-up game?  or am I confusing anecdotes?

Rick

[Carlyle Rood]

Mr. Rood, if we were to judge all people by a single act of generosity (no doubt that's what the UG course was, as you suggest) then all of us would be angels. I doubt that's the best way to judge someone who worked in the public eye for 60 years and whose legacy is far more complicated than that.

Brad:

It was my understanding that Mr. Jones lived briefly and exclusively for the approximate three weeks he invested designing the UGA Golf Course.  

C

[Brad Klein]

Mr. Rood,

nicely stated. My point, which I will elaborate some day at length, is that those three weeks don't come close to making up for many other years of a very different approach to his business. Now that was Trent's legacy.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Forrest,
Tough par 3's.