[Jason Walker]

I can't believe I'm about to write a post defending Donald Trump...but here goes. 

A little context about me--I'm a southern boy who has spent the last 15 years in Rhode Island and Philly.  So the whole Donald Trump/brash New Yorker thing really rubs me the wrong way.

I'm a member of a club (Pine Hill GC, now Trump National-Philadelphia) that was purchased by Trump at the end of 2009.  This past Thursday I attended a reception hosted by the Donald himself with about 100 members.   To say I was shocked by his child-like enthusiasm for golf, his knowledge of agronomy and golf course construction, and his attention to detail regarding club operation would be an understatement.  But that's not the reason I'm going to defend the guy. 

The economy can't be any worse right now, and according to what I read here and other places, the golf economy has sunk much further than the rest of the country.  And all anyone says about Trump is he makes brash statements about his properties and he's 'over the top'.  Well, I completely agree.   But there is a VERY short list of people who are injecting tens of millions of dollars into golf courses and golf clubs these days, and he's gotta be near the top of that list.  I can tell you that at Pine Hill, the place was probably months (maybe weeks) from folding--the finances were that bad and the prior owner was in big trouble.  And if that place went, so would the golf-related jobs, the jobs in the clubhouse, the suppliers who sell to the club....you get my drift.   So he buys it, immediately closes it to the public, starts dropping several million dollars into the place providing work for those in the construction biz, engineers, interiors, gc construction (he's making several changes to the course), etc....It's a very good thing for the club and for golf. 

So before everyone says Trump is the worst thing to ever happen to golf, remember that his track record with his other clubs is impeccable.   The two facilities I've been to (Westchester and Bedminster) are absolutely spectacular experiences, and has been discussed here the course at Bedminster is first-rate.  Do I like seeing the gold Trump crest everywhere?  not so much.  But this guy charges some serious coin to be a member at his clubs and for the most part they're all very successful operations with very satisfied memberships.   

There's a long history of obscene marketing in the golf business.  It's not going to stop, and Donald is probably going to lead the way.  Someone posted something about "the views, the condition of the course, and the hot girls" at his LA place.  I had a group of friends say the exact thing to me after they played it.  THEY LOVED THE EXPERIENCE.  But who really cares what the guy says???  He's already a very rich man--maybe he's in this to feed his ego, but that's fine...many very rich folks do that.  All I care is he's pumping money into a business that's falling like a lead balloon.

[Joel Zuckerman]

The only real reason to play Trump LA is if someone else is footing the tab.   It is however worth visiting to check out the views and equally as important, checking out the bombshells he usually hires to work the counters.  The restaurant there is also worth a visit....food, service and views top notch.

I will agree with this comment, having played both his LA and Westchester County courses.  Both are more tinsel than tree from a GC perspective, but are lavish properties taken as a whole, elevating the old standard "country club for a day" to "emperor for a day."  At Westchester in particular, an insider mentioned to me that Trump ONLY hires 25-year-old (give or take) beauties to serve drinks, food, etc.  The 18 holes, with their incessant reliance on forced carries over ravines, may be lacking, but the 19th hole is not!

[John Sabino]

Some pictures to add to the discussion. The water holes seemed a bit forced to me, especially because it is not really in character for courses in this part of New Jersey (somerset hills, baltusrol, etc). The sixth green is in the foreground and the par three seventh is in the background.



A closeup of the sixth green. Although out of character, it is a challenging green because it is so large and note the large swale in the middle.



I thought the 12th hole was the best on the course and used the terrain well. The bunkers up the right side really get in your head off the tee. The third bunker is an optical illusion since it's actually on the left side of the green. The hole is 392 yards and plays uphill. The carry off the tee, like many here is over a ravine.




The course would really benefit if they cut down the rough which is over the top in my view.


13th is also an interesting hole and plays from the highest point on the property down a hall and is a sharp dogleg left. The green is interesting and oblong.





I agree with Melvyn that all Trump's statements are purely marketing and he doesn't even believe them himself.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Having just played the Ritz Carlton course at Dove Mountain in Marana, AZ, the site of the forthcoming WGC Match Play tournament, I can see the only difference between a Trump club and a Ritz club is the promotional activity of Trump himself. For example, at Dove Mountain there are no ball washers in the teeing area. After my round, I asked the assistant pro about this. His reply was sort of put offish as he said that the course will have forecaddies after the tournament and that ball washers were not needed. Also, most of the hats for sale in the pro shop had the Ritz crown logo. Is there a difference in the over the top experience? I think not.

[Gib_Papazian]

Here is the review I originally wrote about Trump National Palos Verdes:

I'm of two minds about this because there is a time and place for everything in golf from Prestwick in a five club wind to Trump National at the other end of the spectrum. I struggle to separate the golf course in my mind from the overall "Trumposity" of this place, but I make much of my living in NYC, so I am not exactly a California neophyte to this man's long shadow of self-aggrandizing drivel.

Obviously, Palos Verdes is a beautiful place, which gives it instant points in the aesthetic department. However, the round begins with a plaque on the first tee, enumerating how many millions were spent on the golf course, including the 18th, which they claim is the most expensive hole ever built. That plaque also crows that Trump National is the greatest course in California - which is enough to make a dog vomit. Yet, where this sort of ostentatious hyperbole would normally come off as over-reaching and vulgar, somehow we give The Donald a pass because even *he* does not believe his own bullshit.

The golf course is a jam-job in some respects, with many terrace fairways that drop off on one side to oblivion. The rough is high enough in places to make the USGA blush, which is quite a trick. On one hand, it is necessary here and there to stop balls from rolling off the narrow fairways, yet there are some spots where it is obvious where form "Trumps" function and this really detracts in my mind to the overall strategic presentation of the golf course. Putting surface contours were actually fairly interesting.

While the golf course is little more than an expensive amusement that has no chance to stand the test of time on its own merits, I cannot argue with the overall opulence of the experience - which will instantly appeal to 90% those drawn there to entertain clients on the company tab. The food is outstanding and the ambiance is stunningly well designed and thought out.

The Donald is an easy target, largely because he draws fire intentionally with his loony proclamations, but I am going to have to agree that if not for his willingness to rescue a horrific disaster, the entire project would have sat for years as an eyesore - giving ammunition to the legion of anti-golf agitators that have infested the CA coastal commission and those of their ilk.

I think that Trump National P.V. would be far easier to swallow if he opened up the golf course to local high school players and really made an effort to win over the community - but The Donald is an island unto himself and therefore will eventually be subject to ruthless market forces - just like Pelican Hill. The golf course was 1/2 empty when I played it on a perfect Saturday afternoon in June and I did not see anyone slapping down the plastic to purchase their $89 golf shirts.

Perhaps I am wrong, but when you live by the sword . . . . .   

     

[Alex Miller]

Gib, that's a great review of the place.

I was recently one of those high schoolers, and as part of the community I can tell you that he has made no friends around the area. My brother is a senior now and he gets to play Trump once a year so I guess that is the final deal they worked out, but I look back on the days of Ocean Trails play all day for 99$ and sigh.


The restaurant is great though.

[Gib_Papazian]

Alex,

As a vociferous supporter of high school golf, it sickens me to read that your brother is allotted exactly one round a year out there. Perhaps it is Trump's high-handed pomposity from being born on third base that renders him impervious to any sort of social conscience or desire to mentor the same kids who will be his customers in a few short years.

One would think that the facility could generate far more revenue by positioning itself as the sort of unofficial centerpiece to the community. Rancho P.V. is a wealthy spit of land and I imagine that even in these challenging economic times that your neighbors still have enough disposable income to support Trump National - if for nothing else - as a regular destination for parental date night.

Extending a 25% discount to locals on merchandise and green fees - and maybe letting juniors play in the late afternoon for $40 - would not only go long way towards getting the locals behind him, but guarantee a constant revenue stream. If on a Chamber of Commerce Saturday afternoon, the tee sheet was spotty at best, that place has GOT to be bleeding out every orifice.

By sheer coincidence, Trump was actually there the same day and I had a chance to sit down for a lengthy conversation with the General Manager. I had noted that everyone seemed to be scurrying around making sure the sweaters on display were perfectly arranged and that the crew was out detailing the bunkers. Every person with a badge was perfectly groomed and truth be told, the women were breathtaking as only SoCal women can be.

He told me that The Donald immersed himself in every single detail of the facility from the golf course all the way to the cleanliness of the bathrooms, constantly in motion, compulsively evaluating everything and everyone with the cold eyes of an investor tending to his pet project. The G.M. had a walkie-talkie attached to his hand where the staff kept him apprised of Trump's whereabouts every moment.    

The strongest impression that remained was the definite antiseptic quality to the place - almost as if everyone was a hologram from the planet Trump, with perfect teeth and hair - over-the-top gracious and pleasant without a trace of independent personality. In essence, a cadre of talking mannequins put there to attend to every detail and whim of their master. The only hint of humanity was my sense that everyone on the grounds, including the janitor, was absolutely terrified of Trump.

Perhaps they have good reason . . . .

[RJ_Daley]

Is it just me, or are the followers and consumers of the Trumpian lifestyle, and the wanna bees of all things Trump, the same class of people that wrecked our economy with lavish oustentacious spending and manufacturing illusionary trappings of wealth and class arrogance.  Can they not descern buying or associating with quality from sychophant tendancies to be found at the cool kids table?

I see plenty of GCA.com posters (many of whom I know are wealthy - but saavy on the subject) who clearly aren't buying Trumps drivel, because they do get around and know their subject matter regarding actual quality golf course architecture, and can tell from the trappings of consumerism and eletism that comes from experiencing these Trump golf courses, from those that may still be private and/or expensively exclusive, but are of true quality.  Unfortunately, these more descerning and knowlegeable people don't seem to be the ones leading the pack in formulating golf culture or broader financial/spending/investing trends, so much as the sucker types chasing Trumpian lifestyle illusions are effecting the public perceptions.   

[Gib_Papazian]

Dick,

"Trump" is a brand, which is marketed no differently than "so-called" signature courses by Nicklaus, Gucci purses or Jimmy Choo shoes. All are ridiculously overpriced because the name communicates a visceral perception (and in some cases an illusion) of quality. I think that you are demonizing The Donald because you don't like his nouveau riche message - but he is giving the suckers what they want and obviously profiting handsomely from their desire to buy into his bizarre persona.

This goes back to my long held assertion that the fastest way to make money in America is to tap into the wallets of rich saps clamoring for status in the eyes of their peers. You cannot argue that all things Trump communicate extreme quality and opulence - the difference between people like "them" and people like us is that quality and opulence without taste or restraint comes off as vulgar, shallow and pretentious.

But there is an enormous population of wealthy people running around this nation who live in a designer label world, drinking non-fat decaf latte's and paying enormous money for their Pilates classes. Group insanity to us, but buying into the hallucination of exclusivity gives them a sense of self-worth. Society and all the advertisers have told them what to think and this sort of structure - however illusory - gives the shallowites amongst us a sense of direction and purpose to their lives.

In truth, even with all the high-handed hogwash, I would go play Trump National again. Why not? As long as I can keep a perspective, hit the ball along the bluffs of the Pacific and enjoy a perfectly prepared swordfish with capers after the round, why the heck not? In truth, part of the allure to me is the sheer amusement at Trumps level of grandiose buffoonery. Rather than be offended or belittled when dining under the Trump family crest, I find the fact that he gets away with it hysterically funny. A bloated cartoon character whose ridiculous put-on actually got him a tongue-in-cheek TV show where his only contribution was to be rude to idiots. Come to think of it, Simon Cowell gets paid for the same thing.

Look at it this way Dick: The more knuckleheads who buy into Trump's hallucinations, the less crowded it will be at Bandon and Pebble Beach.  

        

[Duncan Betts]

I appreciate the context of this thread, and its probably a fair and reasonable assumption that Pebble and Bandon are better than Trump LA, but how many people here deriding the words of Donald Trump have actually played the 3 courses in question, and the ones that have, please actually justify why he is an idiot, rather than just calling him one.

At the moment, all we have is a bunch of blokes, most of whom probably haven't played all 3 courses, deriding the views of someone who has.  (with a few exceptions of course)

[Alex Miller]

I appreciate the context of this thread, and its probably a fair and reasonable assumption that Pebble and Bandon are better than Trump LA, but how many people here deriding the words of Donald Trump have actually played the 3 courses in question, and the ones that have, please actually justify why he is an idiot, rather than just calling him one.

At the moment, all we have is a bunch of blokes, most of whom probably haven't played all 3 courses, deriding the views of someone who has.  (with a few exceptions of course)

I've played Bandon and Trump LA, not Pebble. It's not close in terms of the course itself, though the views are comparable, Bandon is far superior.

[BCrosby]

Trump didn't make his millions by selling the truth.

[Scott Warren]

I appreciate the context of this thread, and its probably a fair and reasonable assumption that Pebble and Bandon are better than Trump LA, but how many people here deriding the words of Donald Trump have actually played the 3 courses in question, and the ones that have, please actually justify why he is an idiot, rather than just calling him one.

At the moment, all we have is a bunch of blokes, most of whom probably haven't played all 3 courses, deriding the views of someone who has.  (with a few exceptions of course)

Among my points in the OP was that regardless of the truth of the claim, is making that type of call going to help him advance himself in the golf industry? You don't seem to hear guys like Keiser, Parsinen, Sattler, Youngscap etc using the same strategy to get their courses noticed.

[Anthony Gray]

  Wasteland far from civilisation? Isn't that part of its greatness? Shows he may not get it.

  Anthony

[Duncan Betts]

Among my points in the OP was that regardless of the truth of the claim, is making that type of call going to help him advance himself in the golf industry? You don't seem to hear guys like Keiser, Parsinen, Sattler, Youngscap etc using the same strategy to get their courses noticed.

I've heard someone claim that the Lost Farm could possibly be the greatest course on the earth. 

Tom Doak initially made a name for himself via a book that wasn't particularly complimentary of many of the worlds golf courses (or architects by extension).  No doubt this wasn't his intention, and he has since gone well past it with his many world class courses, but the fact remains he was famous amongst golf afficionados as a result of his opinions on courses, before he was famous for his outstanding courses.

I think Jason Walker's post sums up Trump's standing in the golf industry quite well, and perhaps he isn't quite operating in the same environment as a Keiser or a Sattler - but it would appear that he is very well advanced in the golf industry, and making plenty of money in the process, which doesn't appear to be a common occurence if you read this website.

[Gib_Papazian]

Duncan Duncan Duncan . . . .

I think you would be absolutely shocked at how many here in the Treehouse have played all three courses - some numerous times.

And perhaps I need new glasses, but where did anyone call The Donald "an idiot?"

A vain, shallow, self-aggrandizing, pompous buffoon who intentionally makes a spectacle of himself for publicity, yes.

But not an idiot. He is a highly intelligent man who gets away with whatever he wishes to spew from his mouth because the only people who do not know it is all an act are the suckers he fleeces. The rest of us can enjoy what he does well without feeling compelled to have the Trump logo on our golf shirt.   

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak initially made a name for himself via a book that wasn't particularly complimentary of many of the worlds golf courses (or architects by extension).  No doubt this wasn't his intention, and he has since gone well past it with his many world class courses, but the fact remains he was famous amongst golf afficionados as a result of his opinions on courses, before he was famous for his outstanding courses.

Duncan:

That's very true.  But how does that make me like Donald Trump?  The reason my book was so interesting to people was because I was actually saying what I thought, not piling up a mountain of b.s.

I've taken just the opposite approach to p.r. than Mr. Trump, because I am still young enough to remember "The Boy Who Cried Wolf".  Even though every client wants me to say their course is the best ever, I never say or write anything about my own work that I'm not 100% behind.  And golf writers know I don't call them and tell them every one of my courses is even better than the last, so when I do tell them something is special, they are more likely to go believe me and go see it.

[Duncan Betts]

Duncan Duncan Duncan . . . .

I think you would be absolutely shocked at how many here in the Treehouse have played all three courses - some numerous times.

And perhaps I need new glasses, but where did anyone call The Donald "an idiot?"

A vain, shallow, self-aggrandizing, pompous buffoon who intentionally makes a spectacle of himself for publicity, yes.

But not an idiot. He is a highly intelligent man who gets away with whatever he wishes to spew from his mouth because the only people who do not know it is all an act are the suckers he fleeces. The rest of us can enjoy what he does well without feeling compelled to have the Trump logo on our golf shirt.   

My point is this Gib, I personally haven't played any of the 3 courses and whilst I understand that it is a reasonable assumption that Donald is speaking from his rear end, not just because it's him, but because of what I have read about the threee courses over the years - what would be really useful would be if someone would actually take a few seconds and give us a 'cliff notes' on why Trump LA being considered better than the other 2, is so outlandishly rediculous.

Duncan:

That's very true.  But how does that make me like Donald Trump?  The reason my book was so interesting to people was because I was actually saying what I thought, not piling up a mountain of b.s.

I've taken just the opposite approach to p.r. than Mr. Trump, because I am still young enough to remember "The Boy Who Cried Wolf".  Even though every client wants me to say their course is the best ever, I never say or write anything about my own work that I'm not 100% behind.  And golf writers know I don't call them and tell them every one of my courses is even better than the last, so when I do tell them something is special, they are more likely to go believe me and go see it.

It doesn't make you like Donald Trump.  It was just an example that people looking to further themselves don't bother to worry about whether or not others agree with their opinion, nor if others are even insulted by their opinion.  It is merely their opinion and they feel compelled to share it when they see fit.  I think you have just agreed that this is how you behave, which is a wise way indeed.  Donald may or may not do the same thing, and may share his opinion much more often, even when not asked for it, but it's still his opinion.  Whether he really believes it is another question, but at the end of the day, its not up to me to judge.

Maybe he truly does believe some of the stuff he says.  As George Costanza says, "It's not a lie if you truly believe what you are saying!"

[Scott Warren]

Tom Doak initially made a name for himself via a book that wasn't particularly complimentary of many of the worlds golf courses (or architects by extension).  No doubt this wasn't his intention, and he has since gone well past it with his many world class courses, but the fact remains he was famous amongst golf afficionados as a result of his opinions on courses, before he was famous for his outstanding courses.

Tom wasn't trumpeting courses he owned while shitcanning others and whingeing that his should be ranked higher. I don't see how the two scenarios are alike.

[archie_struthers]

 

You know my relatives are from Aberdeenshire , I'm family there...do you think The Donald would send me as an emissary to save the day .....would love to walk the site .....and meet the locals ...drink a few pints   ...wow 

[Andy Troeger]

The golf course is a jam-job in some respects, with many terrace fairways that drop off on one side to oblivion. The rough is high enough in places to make the USGA blush, which is quite a trick. On one hand, it is necessary here and there to stop balls from rolling off the narrow fairways, yet there are some spots where it is obvious where form "Trumps" function and this really detracts in my mind to the overall strategic presentation of the golf course. Putting surface contours were actually fairly interesting.
  

Duncan,
Gib does a very good job in the paragraph quoted above of explaining the major problem with Trump LA. Pebble Beach is one of the great courses in the world and #2 on my personal list. Can't speak to Bandon...yet

[Wayne Freeman]

I'm not sure if this course really rates this much discussion but the fact of the matter is that Trump tried to rescue this golf course and make a bundle on the real estate lots that came along with it, many of which have full on ocean views to die for... of course the price tag for same runs into the millions.  The golf course itself from an architectural point of view was pretty much a disaster from the start.  It is built on the side of a hill and except for the first hole which is in a north/south direction and straight uphill ( with a lake in front and a waterfall in back),  every other hole runs along the coastline which is  west/east in that part of SoCal.  And many of the very long par 4's are directly into the wind making them almost ridiculously hard.  Couple that with the vast amounts of environmentally sensitive areas and several long forced carries to very narrow fairways, and most mid to high handicappers are in for a very long day
( i.e. they better come prepaired with a lot of artillery).  A lot of the holes were just sort of jammed in to tight spaces and the flow is very unnatural.  All that being said,  for the corporate type guy with major bucks who wants to impress a client, or for someone vacationing who doesn't mind springing for the dough,  the overall experience can be very impressive.  And most of the people who play there couldn't care less about the architecture or course set up anyway.

[Jim Nugent]

Trump didn't make his millions by selling the truth.

My impression is he made his millions by leveraging real estate over and over.  If so, that has to be biting him now.  I wonder if his courses really do make money, or in reality are just another debit on his balance sheet. 

Duncan -- several people who posted on this thread played at least some of Trump's courses.  They don't believe his courses come close to Pebble or Bandon.  Neither do the raters, btw.  So when he spouts off, it's kind of like a LPGA player boasting she's better than Tiger. 

[David_Elvins]

Trump didn't make his millions by selling the truth.

It was my impression that he has never really made millions. 

[Alex Miller]

Trump didn't make his millions by selling the truth.

It was my impression that he has never really made millions. 

He's made millions, but he wants people to think he's made billions.


This is one of the few golf courses I wish was never made. The brothers (whose name I'm blanking on) went bankrupt trying to fulfill their dream in this project, not unlike the Erin Hills story. Even though there's a huge need for golf courses (from a golfer's perspective) in L.A. and especially near Palos Verdes / South Bay, this didn't really help anyone. So now a golfer who wants to play a reasonable price for the quality of golf they experience has only 2-3 options in a 20+ mile radius, and outside of that there's only other dilapidated munis for a ways.

On a side not, the Terrenea par 3 course 5 minutes down the road is a better golf course than Trump's and is 1/10th the price. The hotel, however, is losing money and they've thought about declaring bankruptcy at least once, though I believe they were able to avoid it by taking a loan from the city. It is almost the opposite situation to Trump's course, the golf facilities are in the black while the rest of the place is in the red.

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