[Mike Cirba]

I don't know nearly as much about the history of Oakmont's golf course as I'd like to but one thing that really surprised me from Ed Oden's thread showing design maps is that the routing of the course, which is not unsophisticated by any means, was already in place by 1908.

I also am aware that many bunkers were added through the early years as the Fownes family watched play and sought to make the golf course ultra-demanding, having been really good players themselves, yet other than greenskeeper Emil Loeffler, I'm not sure they ever had any professional or expert assistance.

Which led me to thinking about the incredible greens there.   Were they always so amazing?   Is that the way they were built or did they evolve into those creations with, as one wag wrote years back, "more rolls per square foot than Sara Lee"?

Were they ever rebuiilt at an time?   What do we know about their genesis and evolution?

Thanks for any insight!

[John Foley]

Mike,

There was a semi-recent thread

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38115.0

I recall there was also a thread (one that I could not find) which talk about the physical grass on the greens never being changed. Don't know if it's true (or even possible).

Possibly Forrest or Mark Fine could chime in.

[Mike Cirba]

Thanks, John...interesting summary from Rick and others.

[Mark Luckhardt]

Mike,

Having dug up each green, in a manner of speaking, to install our drainage process, I can say that if it were possible that some greens were altered over the years, it is hard to recognize in the soil profile, as the profiles are remarkably consistent throughout all 18 greens. Which could mean they were altered in the last 50 years, but I didn't notice during our excavation.

That kind of consistency is pretty rare over the course of history, as most all other courses have tinkered with their beloved greensites in some way or another. That is part of the reason, that Oakmont's greens, should be and are highly regarded as an industry gold standard.

[Mike Cirba]

Mike,

Having dug up each green, in a manner of speaking, to install our drainage process, I can say that if it were possible that some greens were altered over the years, it is hard to recognize in the soil profile, as the profiles are remarkably consistent throughout all 18 greens. Which could mean they were altered in the last 50 years, but I didn't notice during our excavation.

That kind of consistency is pretty rare over the course of history, as most all other courses have tinkered with their beloved greensites in some way or another. That is part of the reason, that Oakmont's greens, should be and are highly regarded as an industry gold standard.

Mark,

Thanks for the "inside scoop", so to speak.

That's exactly the type of information I was hoping to find here.    I think it's quite remarkable to consider how they were built at that time, and also to consider what might have been their inspiration, even if we can only speculate.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,

Here is some further evidence of changes.
From 1925:

Even a cold winter is not preventing the Oakmont Club from preparing for the coming of the great amateur stars during the approaching season. Emil Loeffler, the course greenkeeper, under the guidance of William C. Fownes, Jr., started early last summer to prepare the course, putting in new tees and changing many of the greens, so that those who played over Oakmont in the 1919 championship will see a course vastly different from that which greeted them when the title event was staged here five years ago.  Number thirteen green, which was picked by "Chick" Evans as the thirteenth green on an "All-American" course some time ago, is among the greens being changed, Needless to say, it is not being made easier. The number six green, difficult enough in 1919, has been remade, and it is now said to be one of the best holes in the country. The same is true of number seven. This green was rebuilt early in the season but after being almost finished was deemed not good enough and was torn up again. Now it is said to equal any number seven hole in America. Other changes are slated between now and the time for the big title tournament that will make the course, already considered an extremely difficult one, the equal of any golf course ever constructed.

From 1927:

The course has undergone some big changes since the amateur championship was played there in 1925. The old
sixteenth hole has been eliminated and a new hole built. There was fault found with this old hole by some of the players, who pronounced it a bit unfair. The green was of the hog-back variety and it was difficult to hold your tee shot on it. The hole measured 230 yards and the safest way to approach it was to play your tee shot, short, and slightly to the left, permitting your ball to trickle on the green. Often a well played shot onto the green would be penalized, as it would not stick on, but would land in the traps and bunkers on the sides or rear.
The new hole is a big improvement and is now one of the sportiest one shotter on the course. The tee has been moved back and elevated, while the green has been brought forward. There was no change made in the distance, and it still measures 230 yards. The rim of the green has been built up and there will be no difficulty in holding
your tee shots. The green is severely trapped and bunkered, and a poorly played shot will be penalized and there
will be no escaping with impunity. It will be all carry from the tee and an accurate shot will be rewarded. Another important change is the one to the fifteenth green. A new green moved back 40 yards has been built and it calls for a full iron on your second shot. The hole measures 470 yards with the new green. This green is also guarded with deep traps and bunkers on the sides and rear. A new tee to the eighteenth hole will add 20 yards distance and make it a lot harder, this will make a fine finishing  hole.
(Oakmont played at 7,000 yards for The US Open that year)   

[Mike Cirba]

Thanks, Jim....that's very helpful information.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,

It does seem that Oakmont has made quite a few changes to their greens over time, including completely moving some to new sites  and/or totally rebuilding othersm 'in place' as the times and competitions warranted.

[TEPaul]

"I don't know nearly as much about the history of Oakmont's golf course as I'd like to but one thing that really surprised me from Ed Oden's thread showing design maps is that the routing of the course, which is not unsophisticated by any means, was already in place by 1908."

Mike:

On that other thread that stick routing drawing of Oakmont is captioned as being from 1908. That's likely a mistaken date. In the very good recent Oakmont history book by Marino Parascenzo (well known Pittsburgh sports writer) that same routing plan is listed as from 1903 which seeing as the construction of the course began in September of 1903 might have been a drawing of the course pre-construction. The routing from that 1903 drawing most certainly is remarkably close to the way the course is and has always been, even though at least three greens were moved somewhat and others were rebuilt in place and tee length was added over the years.

As for the grass on the greens, I've long been told it is at least 50-60 year old poa (I believe Oakmont had a major catastrophe with their greens right before the 1950 US Open). Whatever it is it sure is immaculate now. You stand on one of those greens and look down at that grass and it looks like about eight gazillion little pins looking up at you.

[Sean_Tully]

TePaul

That Oakmont routing that I put in Ed's thread is from a magazine article in 1908. It sounds like they were still using that image then either right or wrong to show what the course looked like as it was a possible course for a Western Am Championship.

Tully

[Mark Luckhardt]

Mike,

Having dug up each green, in a manner of speaking, to install our drainage process, I can say that if it were possible that some greens were altered over the years, it is hard to recognize in the soil profile, as the profiles are remarkably consistent throughout all 18 greens. Which could mean they were altered in the last 50 years, but I didn't notice during our excavation.

That kind of consistency is pretty rare over the course of history, as most all other courses have tinkered with their beloved greensites in some way or another. That is part of the reason, that Oakmont's greens, should be and are highly regarded as an industry gold standard.

Mark,

Thanks for the "inside scoop", so to speak.

That's exactly the type of information I was hoping to find here.    I think it's quite remarkable to consider how they were built at that time, and also to consider what might have been their inspiration, even if we can only speculate.

Mike,
 
I would speculate that all the original, and moved, and or added on to greens were built/molded out of the same native on site clay base as all the greens were constructed. Even after over 100 years the soil profile changes completely just over 4" deep from the topdressing efforts over the last 50 years or so.

Jim,

Yes, they have the finest stand of their own unique Oakmont poa annua putting surface, that is unique to their specific site in Western PA, and won't grow very well anywhere else. This hardy surface has transitioned superbly to the higher stresses modern superintendents put on these greens. They move a really high volume  of golfers through that course, as compared to other top 25 clubs, and provide US Open type conditions for all golfers, on an everyday basis.

[TEPaul]

"TePaul

That Oakmont routing that I put in Ed's thread is from a magazine article in 1908. It sounds like they were still using that image then either right or wrong to show what the course looked like as it was a possible course for a Western Am Championship."



Maybe that routing is from a magazine article in 1908 but that doesn't necessarily mean the routing drawing was done at that time. The recent history book has the same plan with the caption that it was published in 1903. Maybe the history book is wrong, who knows, but that's what it says.

There is no date on that stick routing drawing and unfortunately no name on it either. When I asked the historian of the club who he thinks did that orginal Oakmont routing he said he thinks the Fownses did it.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mark,
I think your speculation that: "....all the original, and moved, and or added on to greens were built/molded out of the same native on site clay base as all the greens were construct".....is probably correct, and seeing as how you saw the profiles I take your word for it....although  , I don't believe they'd even entertain the notion of bringing another type of soil into the mix as this would cause them umpteen problems, forever.

I think it's pretty clear that Oakmont's greens are without peer, but it's also pretty clear that they went through changes, like every other golf course, to get where they are today.

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