Sand Hills's Four Wild Greens (#2, #3, #6 and #8)

[John Kirk]

Looking for anecdotes here, while thinking about the big broad shoulder that dominates the third green at Sand Hills.

There are three wild greens at Sand Hills, #2, #3 and #6.  I suppose you could add #8 (Lion's Mouth) to the list.

I was thinking about how I've two-putted for par from one side of the big ridge to the other on #3.  Twice, actually.  Once from the front to the back right pin, and once from the back to the front pin.  Very rewarding.  The ridge is very broad, and can be handled, despite its intimidating size.

Share your favorite putting anecdote at any of these four Sand Hills greens.  Thank you.

[Rob Rigg]

Can anyone put some photos of the greens in question on the thread so those of us who have not had the pleasure can see what Mr Kirk is referring to?

Always nice to have some context to go along with the stories.

[Tom_Doak]

What about 18?

[John Kirk]

Gee, I think of #18 green as being quite large, set into a dune, with significant front to back slope and moderate internal contouring.  To my recollection, the approach shot plays a LOT uphill, perhaps two full clubs, in part because the back of the green catches and collects the long shots.

What's your recollection?

[Chip Gaskins]

#2



#3


#6



#8

[Ed Oden]

Rob, here are pictures of #2...




...#3...


...and #8...


I don't have a good image of the 6th green.  This is the the best I could find...


My anecdote involves #6.  As you can see from the last photo, the pin was very forward, almost to the crest of the false front.  I have no idea what the greens were stimping at that day, but they were lightning fast.  Unfortunately, the wind was blowing a steady 35-40 mph from back to front toward the tee.  These factors combined to make the 6th green essentially unputtable.  Bart Bradley and I played two rounds and neither of us ever managed to actually hole out.  Any ball within 15 feet of the hole in any direction would not come to rest and was blown off the front of the green.  Putting or chipping back up was merely a repeat exercise in futility.  Just the wrong pin placement for the conditions that day.  I'm actually surprised things like that don't happen more often.  Regardless, our follies on #6 did nothing to diminish my enthusiasm for the course.

Ed

[Alex Miller]

Question:

Never been to Sand Hills, but judging from photos, the 8th doesn't look nearly as wild as 2,3, or 6? Is it really wild or just cool and unique?

[John Kirk]

Yes, that's right, Alex.  The opening post in this thread notes that the 8th green might also be considered among the wilder greens on the course.  The 8th green is designed so there may be an anecdote or two out there about about two puttig from one side to the other.  The back of the 8th is high, and could be used to direct balls around the bunker.

[Rob Rigg]

Thanks for the pics guys!

Does the tightly mown grass around the greens increase their effective size in terms of "real" puttability?

I don't think SH was fescue so wondered how they rolled (or not) from the short grass?

Hopefully that makes sense - you know how on a lot of links courses the greens and fairways are almost indistinguishable - they do not look that way at SH - but that doesn't mean they don't play that way (to a certain extent).

It is always hard to tell from photos but it looks like the movement blends very naturally with the surrounding contours and hills in the distance - interesting but not over the top?

Ed - I am not questioning the "awesomeness" of Sand Hills - but if the greens are running so fast that you cannot putt out . . . wouldn't any other course get a serious demerit for that? Or maybe the greenskeeper was just grumpy that morning.

[John Foley]

Best ancetode, #8 from the middle tee's Driver to 3 ft - hugged the right hand side and drew it onto the green

That was a very dissapointing birdie!!

[Tom Huckaby]

I think it quite short-shrifts the course to allow only four "wild" greens.

One has to remember that said greens are typically very quick - only sometimes (in my experience, and from what I hear from members) do they get crazy quick (12+ on stimp) and in those times, look out - but even most normal average days there, the greens are very fast.  So although some don't have obvious "wild" internal contours, given they are so fast, they PLAY as if they do - the effective break on each is massive, and the touch required is huge...darn never every hole.  I could go one by one but of those not mentioned, it works like this....

1 - general back to front strong slope, means downhill putts must be played ever so skillfully or they could roll off the front and 50 yards down a hill... even side-hill putts must keep this in mind... the effect being as wild and terrifying a green as anything one can imagine....

4 - side-slope going from left to right, same issue as 1... be very very careful.....

7 - generally flat, tilting to the right toward the dropoff..... same issues... effectively TONS of break....

That's the general principle, and there are elements of it on pretty much every hole.

So what's the point of just asking for anecdotes on the four greens with obviously huge contours?  My guess is that one could provide interesting putting anecdotes about EVERY SINGLE GREEN there....

Ask Gene Greco for a good one about #4, for example.  It's been shared here many times.  It is the bane of my putting existence.

 

[Tom_Doak]

John:

I have had some wild breaking putts on both #9 and #18 due to the tilt plus a bump on the inside ... no triple breakers, though.

For what it's worth, #3 green at Sand Hills is pretty much exactly what I saw on the ground there prior to construction; that's a natural landform.  #2 is completely changed.  #6, I can't remember well, wish I could.  And #8 is completely made up ... it was just a dead-end valley to start with, they dug all the bunkers and used that fill to build up the green pad.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom D - the wild breaking putts like you mention on 9 and 18 can happen on pretty much any green there - thus my post to John.  If the requirement is triple breakers though, that is different.

Rob Rigg - I have been there three times, and have never experienced greens so fast that the effect is absurd (ball won't stay by the hole just due to gravity).  Perhaps that can happen (as Ed details)... if so, well that sucks, yes.  But I have never seen it.  The greens are fast, yes... but outside of a crazy combo of fast, high wind, crazy pin position as Ed listed, they work, oh my yes they work.  It is quite an examination of putting imagination.

TH

[Scott Szabo]

TH

I believe I know the story that you are talking about, but I'll leave it to Gene to share - he tells it much better than I could    I only hope to be there the next time you get another shot at 4!  I think those were the first words out of Gene's mouth the day we played.  "Let me tell you a story about Old Huckaby......." - You know the rest!

While I was there last time I had a putt from the front right portion of the green on #2 with the pin just over the knob, no more than about 30 feet away (I would say very close to the pin in Ed's pictures).  I tried to go stratight at it and wound up not hitting it hard enough.  It stayed up, but barely - I thought it would end up back at my feet.  Then Christian Greco threw his ball down by mine, hit it up into the fringe about 25 feet right of the hole, and it fed back down and finished about 4 feet away.  I would have never dreamed of that line, but it paid off nicely.

I agree with TH regarding the green speeds turning a slightly breaking putt into one that breaks much more.

Number 7 with a front right pin can be devilish.  It wouldn't be too hard to putt it right off the green and down the hill.

[Tom Huckaby]

Scott... sigh... never have I felt such pressure, and never have I so clearly failed.  What sucks however is that like every legend, with each telling it gets more and more exaggerated... the truth is it was at least 6 feet, and it had a definite break in it - mine was not an easy putt (as few are on that golf course).  By the time the tellings are through it will be that I wiffed from two inches.

 

I would have to guess the possibilities on 2 are pretty much limitless.  But leave it to the teenagers to figure out the weirdest one.  And what you say about 7 is what I was getting at as well.... same sort of effect happens on 11... 14...

[Scott Szabo]

TH

From what I recall it was no more than 2-3 feet, straight in - no way it could possibly be missed!

At any rate, it couldn't have been the WORST stroke ever witnessed at Sand Hills.  I played a match with Jr. & Sr. Greco and the stroke that Gene put on a putt on #15 is the stuff of legends.  He had about a 6 footer for par (I was just inside him) with a slight, and I say slight, break to the right.  I swear he missed it by about 2 cups to the right - the old PUSH CUT stroke.  He claims he missed it on purpose to not give the line away, but I'm not so sure I believe him.

[Tom Huckaby]

TH

From what I recall it was no more than 2-3 feet, straight in - no way it could possibly be missed!

I'm happy the current status is 2-3 feet.  Check back next year.
 

[Michael Dugger]

John,

Ever know someone who had a cat that would crawl underneath the blankets to hide? 

You'd enter the bedroom and there would be a nicely made bed with a lump in it.

That is what I think of when I see some of these images. 

The shoulder on #3 looks like a tremor is moving across the landscape.

[Gene Greco]

TH

From what I recall it was no more than 2-3 feet, straight in - no way it could possibly be missed!

I'm happy the current status is 2-3 feet.  Check back next year.
 

Why wait?

It was a foot and a half.

[John Kirk]

Hi Tom Huckaby!

I don't have to have a reason for posting a thread on these four particular greens.  I hope that's a satisfactory answer.

Greens with significant back to front slope, of which there are several at Sand Hills, leave the player with some big breaking parabolic putts.  However, they don't necessarily yield memorable plays around the green.  I've also executed the up and down to the back right pin on #2 by flopping it up on the fringe right of the green, and letting it trickle down to the hole.  I needed a 10 footer to finish the par.  Another time, fellow Ballyneal member Ted Moore executed a phenomenal up and down on #2 from the back left fringe to a front pin.  Can't remember how he did it, but it was one of those ten second plays.  Ooooooooo.

#6 is a bitch, and it seems the front left bowl dominates play there.  If the pin is down there, the only place to miss is short and left.  In general, putting from one part of the green to another is extremely difficult.

FYI, a conversation with the superintendent last summer indicated they may try to keep the greens a little bit slower in the future, which I believe would enhance the playability of the course.  So that means greens kept at 11-11.5 feet, versus the 13-14 feet many of us have experienced.

Tom Doak, thanks for the history lesson.

[Tom Huckaby]

John:  Hi back!
Of course that's a satisfactory answer.. it just does seem a little strange to me to single out four greens at a course which can yield anecdotes likely from all 18.  But it's your thread and you are surely entitled to limit it so!

As for the plans for Sand Hills, heck I've never played it faster than 11-12, which is pretty damn fast in the scheme of things.  If they did indeed have it faster than that, then yes, that's not good, as too many situations like Ed described would result.  Methinks the good people there will get things right, as they seemingly always do.

One more thing:  I would disagree with this:

"Greens with significant back to front slope, of which there are several at Sand Hills, leave the player with some big breaking parabolic putts.  However, they don't necessarily yield memorable plays around the green."

Oh my... I had a play from below the right bunker that showed your "unified theory" at it's finest... hard spinning pitch all the way to the back of the green, huge parabola, ends up tapin to a front pin... I was proud of it as it was the only way I figured I could get a ball to stop anywhere near that pin... and that was on a green with significant  back to front slope.  It was a VERY memorable play from off the green.  I think things like that happen at Sand Hills a lot... and it's due to the speed of the greens.

But whoops!  There I go talking about 1.  Sorry about that.  I'll try to think of anecodotes about the greens you mention.

 


Gene Greco, you are a bad bad man.
 

[Scott Szabo]

TH,

Too bad Mucci wasn't there to witness it.  Can you imagine the story that would have come from that?  I'm sure he would have found a way to mix in the "prevailing winds" in some manner....  It must be nice to be so loved that the stories keep repeating themselves years after the occurrence.

All joking aside, I don't think there's ever been a statement that you've made about Sand Hills that I've disagreed with in any way.  I think we see the course, and the club for that matter, in the same light. 

[Tom Huckaby]

TH,

Too bad Mucci wasn't there to witness it.  Can you imagine the story that would have come from that?  I'm sure he would have found a way to mix in the "prevailing winds" in some manner....  It must be nice to be so loved that the stories keep repeating themselves years after the occurrence.

All joking aside, I don't think there's ever been a statement that you've made about Sand Hills that I've disagreed with in any way.  I think we see the course, and the club for that matter, in the same light. 

Well... Gene isn't doing bad with the chronicles of my misfortune.   
As for the rest, yeah we do see this the same way.... many others do also.... it is that kinda place.

[Gene Greco]

         Huckster had eighteen inches and all four of of us would have birdied the mighty 485 yd 4th from the double diamond tees.

Class A caddie from Seminole who had spent a couple of summers in Mullen continually looping for visiting golf professionals and scratch players hadn't seen a group come through with more than two birds from ANY of the tees. 

And Huckaby misses it.

The meadowlark whistling on the yucca plant could have blown it in. 

[Ed Oden]

Ed - I am not questioning the "awesomeness" of Sand Hills - but if the greens are running so fast that you cannot putt out . . . wouldn't any other course get a serious demerit for that? Or maybe the greenskeeper was just grumpy that morning.

Rob, my view is that it was just a poor pin placement for that day's conditions.  I suspect things would have been fine if the wind was less severe or coming from a different direction.  Unfortunately, it was blowing extremely hard straight down the slope of the green toward the false front.  No doubt there were plenty of other pin positions which would not have yielded the same result.  But for all I know the wind was significantly different than what was anticipated when the pin was set.  Things happen, so I'm willing to give it a pass.  All too often I think folks around here assume that the conditions we encounter when visiting a course are the norm.  In my experience, the opposite is more likely to be the case.  So unless several more guys chime in with similar tales of adventure on #6, I am very comfortable characterizing my experience as an "anecdote" rather than a "demerit".

Ed